Brakes

[desmo4]

I checked my brakes before and after Laguna Seca. Now I need fronts. I just ordered EBC greens which sound slightly better than stock with my stock rotors. Anybody have any experience with them?

Jonathan

[monkeymaker]

Hi Jonathan, are you trying to replace your stock pads for street, track, or autocross use?

[desmo4]

Not really, the fronts had about 1/2 life before the track and after they look pretty thin. Just though I would up grade from stock. I think my track days in the future will be in speedway carts instead of my road car.

Jonathan

[monkeymaker]

Just be aware that you may be messing with the brake bias by increasing stopping power up front with better pads there. You might already know this stuff, but just in case... if the brake bias moves forward a bit, beware of the rear end being lighter than normal when you hit the brakes. Be especially careful when trail braking, and make sure you squeeze the throttle on to settle the rear end the moment you're off the gas.

Of course you could avoid worrying about this stuff by slapping the same compound on the rears too. :)

[dlq04]

No experience with EBC. For what it's worth, I'm very pleased with Carbotech Panther Plus for track days. They are ok for street use, except they squeel from time to time - so I change back to stock. I know several others that use Panther Plus for tracking as well and they too are very happy with them.

[fastoldman]

Stay away from EBC greens for track use, as they are designed for street use and to reduce brake dust. The low temperature gradient is efficient for street, but it will not take trake temps at all. They are great for reducing squeal and keeping your rims nice, but that is their forte and nothing further. I would recommend a strong look at Brakeman pads ( #3s ) for track use , as they have a phenomenally progressive feel and are friendlier to rotors than Hawk Blues. EBC makes a red compound , and it is supposedly reformulated , but I can't verify the effectiveness yet. We used a set of reds on our Spec Miata and fried them in less than two sessions. The other reason I like the Brakeman's , is that they are one of the true race pads that also work well on the street --- though obviously this will cause them to wear faster.

[J R]

I have some experience with EBC Greens on the track at TWS. It is a fairly high speed track (130 plus on the front straight) and the pads did not hold up well at all. They started to flake and break up pretty quickly.

I too, would recommend the Panther Plus as an option. They dust about the same as the EBCs (which dust more than advertised), but have much better staying power on a track at speed. I haven't yet tried the Brakeman pads, but I do hear good things about them as well. HTH.

John H.

[desmo4]

Thanks for all the info. For now I think I put a set of EBC Greens on the rear to keep it balanced until I deside to take it back to the track.
One thing I did notice is the initial bite with the EBC's is much harder than the stock pads.

Jonathan

[genghiskwong]

How about the porterfield R4s? more for everyday, occasional autoX and rare track.....

any thoughts?

[monkeymaker]

I hated the R4S on the track. They are by far the worst I've tried, in both performance and longevity, and are only marginally better than stock. They didn't last long enough for me to try them on the street or at an auto-x.

[Yellow Streak]

Getting into hard use brake components, here is what I started with and here is what I am going to:

I have been running OEM rotors with Carbotech XPs up front and Carbotech Panther+ in the rear. Lines are Goodridge and fluid is ATE Super Blue. Front heat shields are removed and tie rod ends are wrapped in aluminum heat reflective tape. This combo worked pretty well for me except that on the last two outings (short tracks), I have blued all 4 rotors. I didn't have any fade issues. When a real driver got in my car, he cooked the front pads and boiled the fluid. He also got the whole thing hot enough that the adhesive on the heat reflective tape melted. Since this driver is going to be occasionally driving my car, I need to upgrade.

The new setup will be OEM rotors with Hawk Blues up front and Hawk Blacks in the rear. Lines will remain the same and the fluid will be Motul (hopefully avoiding the boil). The heatshields in the rear will be removed. New heat reflective tape will be applied and it will be safety wired to keep it on. 2" brake ducting is going to be installed in the front in hopes of keeping everything cooler.

If it seems like this is overkill for the brakes, keep in mind that my car weighs 2600 pounds, has 300 whp and is running Hoosiers (225/50 front - 275/45 rear) :D

Any input on this setup would be appreciated.

-YS

[monkeymaker]

YS~ Be sure to direct the airflow to the rotor eye through the forward upper vent in the front dust shields. This will allow for more balanced cooling of the front rotors. I suggest you leave the dust shields on in the rear because if you go off course and kick up some rocks and crap the shields will protect your brake components. Believe me man, I speak from experience! ;)

Also, you shouldn't have to worry about heat in the rears since more than 70% of the braking is done up front and the bias will move even farther forward with that pad combo (If I'm right about the compounds you chose.) Also be aware that your stock rotors will get eaten alive by those Hawk Blues, so be ready to swap them out at the track! You might also want to switch to Motul 600 brake fluid since I believe it's dry and wet boiling points are higher than the Super Blue. I've managed to boil the Super Blue numerous times (very likely due to insufficient cooldown laps.)

Oh yeah, where are you going to catch the air into your brake ducts?

[Yellow Streak]

Originally posted by monkeymaker
YS~ Be sure to direct the airflow to the rotor eye through the forward upper vent in the front dust shields. This will allow for more balanced cooling of the front rotors. I suggest you leave the dust shields on in the rear because if you go off course and kick up some rocks and crap the shields will protect your brake components. Believe me man, I speak from experience! ;)

Also, you shouldn't have to worry about heat in the rears since more than 70% of the braking is done up front and the bias will move even farther forward with that pad combo (If I'm right about the compounds you chose.) Also be aware that your stock rotors will get eaten alive by those Hawk Blues, so be ready to swap them out at the track! You might also want to switch to Motul 600 brake fluid since I believe it's dry and wet boiling points are higher than the Super Blue. I've managed to boil the Super Blue numerous times (very likely due to insufficient cooldown laps.)

Oh yeah, where are you going to catch the air into your brake ducts?

MM-

The airflow is directed to the eye of the rotor. I don't have heat shields, but it is aimed properly - I was helped by one of the mechanics from the Ferrari GT team :D

All of the heatshields are gone due to the recommendation by Dave Kennedy. I guess I'll just have to be careful not to go off track.

I swapped over to Motul.

We put new rotors on all 4 corners today. I am hoping that is enough to last 3 days of tracking as I don't have another set of rotors handy.

I put 2" flanges in the fake air ducts - I hope that will work OK.

-YS

[monkeymaker]

I put homemade flanges in the faux ducts as well. Works like a charm. :)

[Yellow Streak]

Originally posted by monkeymaker
I put homemade flanges in the faux ducts as well. Works like a charm. :)

So do you think new Hawks with new rotors will last for 3 track days?

-YS

[fastoldman]

Motol is only slightly better than the fluid you have been using, but often slightly is all you need. It does have better wet characteristics.
You might want to try Brakeman #3s over the Hawk blues , as they are much easier on the rotors,though they do wear a bit faster. They are very progressive in nature, and they feel the same throughout their life cycle ( problem in that you need to check them more often ).We seem to go through them quicker, but then this is partly because we seem to be faster with them too - speed = wear! You might want to try xtreme 6 for fluid , as it is almost equivalent to Castrol SRF, but it is mucho cheaper ( around $20 a bottle ).Our dealership has been carrying these products for years, and we have tried most every pad on the market for our racing Vipers, and Brakeman keeps coming out on top. Give me a call if I can help, and the ducts are usually the best investment anyone can make, but so many drivers seem to resist the cost. Good luck and keep us posted on your next run.

Bill Pemberton
1-800-889-1893

[Yellow Streak]

Originally posted by fastoldman
Motol is only slightly better than the fluid you have been using, but often slightly is all you need. It does have better wet characteristics.
You might want to try Brakeman #3s over the Hawk blues , as they are much easier on the rotors,though they do wear a bit faster. They are very progressive in nature, and they feel the same throughout their life cycle ( problem in that you need to check them more often ).We seem to go through them quicker, but then this is partly because we seem to be faster with them too - speed = wear! You might want to try xtreme 6 for fluid , as it is almost equivalent to Castrol SRF, but it is mucho cheaper ( around $20 a bottle ).Our dealership has been carrying these products for years, and we have tried most every pad on the market for our racing Vipers, and Brakeman keeps coming out on top. Give me a call if I can help, and the ducts are usually the best investment anyone can make, but so many drivers seem to resist the cost. Good luck and keep us posted on your next run.

Bill Pemberton
1-800-889-1893

Bill-

Thanks a million for the info.

The cost of the ducts was a whopping $78. I bought 2 2" flanges and 11 feet of 2" silicone hose (the 500 degree stuff). The labor (free since I did it) was a bit of a pain, but nothing to write home about.

Once these pads are gone, I'll call you to try out the Brakeman pads.

-YS

[hecash]

Desmo4, you can do yourself some good. We have a great list of sponsors on this forum. Among that list is Cobalt Friction. On the staff of Cobalt Friction is a courteous and knowledgeable gentleman named Andie Lin.

I think that you will be happy with the result if you call him or send an e-mail to him asking him to call you or setting out your issues and asking for his recommendations. The likelihood is that he will give you more than one option for your needs.

[Agentmulli]

Man, I wish I read this thread before I decided on the Hawk Blues. They sound like they are literally eating my rotors. After I was done with my short, relatively easy drive to bed them in, the brakes were scorching hot and the rotors looked, well, like they're being eaten alive. I think I'm gonna take my chances with a new set of stock pads at Laguna Seca and have the old 50% worn stocks as back-up and the Hawks as emergency back-up. Is there a rotor that is better with the Hawk blues or would I be better off just putting them on the shelf and going with something else?

By the way, I couldn't get the rear caliper compressed enough to put the Hawks on the rear. Is there a trick I should know? I was able to get a C-clamp on there and get it real tight and it still wouldn't compress enough. I was gonna ask the dealership in the morning. But maybe you guys know of a tool or trick.

[monkeymaker]

By the way, I couldn't get the rear caliper compressed enough to put the Hawks on the rear. Is there a trick I should know? I was able to get a C-clamp on there and get it real tight and it still wouldn't compress enough. I was gonna ask the dealership in the morning. But maybe you guys know of a tool or trick.
The trick is to stick the 3/8" drive ratchet right into the caliper piston. Wiggle it slightly and you'll find it fits right in there! Then just hold the caliper firmly and push the piston down a little as you ratchet away! :)

If you want to run the Hawk Blues at Laguna Seca, pick up a set of rotors at a dealership this week and bring them with you to the track. They'll be great to have just in cast you snap a rotor. I've done it numerous times and was able to swap the cracked metal out pretty quickly and not miss more than a session.

If you are hard enough on the Blues to break a rotor then you'll probably kill your stock pads and/or boil your fluid too, so I'd just run the Blues out there. Just be sure to stay completely off your brakes on the cool down lap (the entire lap dude, all the way until you're parked on the paddock!) so the rotors will have some airflow to cool them down without braking friction raising the temps right back up again.

[dlq04]

What are your top speeds at Laguna? Just wondering because of the way you describe eating up pads and rotors.

[monkeymaker]

Laguna's not all that fast, really... about 110 in a stock S2000. It's probably the braking style... late and hard... that's the true culprit.

[Agentmulli]

What are your top speeds at Laguna? Just wondering because of the way you describe eating up pads and rotors.

I don't know if you have any experience with this pad but my initial experience with them is a real learning experience (my first racing pads). For instance, the sound from the brakes is a lot like the sound you hear from a passing train...Not the clickity-clack sound from the tracks but that ringing sound coming from the steel wheels...the pads are loud and sound like they are grinding the rotors away quickly (which they are!). Also, the initial 10-15 miles, with no aggressive driving, has turned my aluminum SSR's a very noticeable gunmetal grey color from an abundance of brake dust. Maybe there is so much brake dust because of the initial bedding of the pads. I have yet to put the rear pads on too...this should help the front rotors by sharing more of the load and returning everything to normal F/R brake bias.

Anyway, I have no other experience with anything but stock pads but it certainly seems like Perry is 100% correct about the possibility of going through a set of rotors in a day at the track...I bought a set of backup rotors from Honda today just in case. And thanks a bunch too Perry for the tip on how to compress the rear calipers! For everybody else out there changing rear pads for the first...the rear calipers need to be screwed in as opposed to compressed with a C-clamp.

[dlq04]

Agent,

I've been reading your posts and it's clear you are at the beginning of the learning curve on track preparation. Since your life depends on knowing what you are doing when working on the car yourself, the first thing I would suggest to you is to buy the Honda S2000 Service Manual by Helms. This is the book the dealership uses and as I recall it sells for about $70. It gives you detailed instructions on changing brake pads properly, where to put grease properly, how the shims go, etc.

For a first time racer I still think the Panther Plus pads would be a much better choice. They are not going to trash your rotors. They have excellent stopping unless you are driving at the limits where you need 100% racing pads, racing tires, etc.

I saw in the other thread that you had the dealership change your brake fluid. This is something that you will want to learn to do yourself. Depending on how often you take the car to the track, you must "bleed" the brake fluid on a regular basis. Personally, I do it after every track session. Again, the proper procedure is outlined in Helms.

You need to remember that not knowing how to do something right could get you into serious trouble (i.e., leaving a bleed screw partially open, damaging a brake line because you did not take proper protection while working on the pads, etc.). THINK SAFETY all the time. Whenever possible perform work with someone who is experienced. Keep notes. Ask questions before you attempt to do something . . . How much brake fluid do I need? Is there anything I need to be aware of when I do ________________?

Good luck & enjoy.

[dlq04]

Here's an example of my notes. If I have not done the job in a while, I give these a quick read so I don't overlook something important.

DLQ NOTES ON BRAKE PAD & FLUID CHANGE

SUPPLIES
Brake fluid
Brake grease
Reference Helms manual as needed

TOOLS
12 mm offset box wrench
19 mm open-end wrench
17 mm open-end wrench
3/8" open-end wrench
19 mm socket & breaker bar for lugs nuts
13" bungy cord to hold calipers
3" c-clamp
7" trim crowbar [used sideways to turn-in (clockwise) rear caliper pistons]; a 3/8" drive ratchet apparently works as well.
Large channel locks [helps hold rear calipers during turn-in]
Bleed bottle & hose, floor jack, boards, & jack stands, paper towels
Torque wrench [80 lbs. for replacing lug nuts]

REMINDERS
There are 2 shims on the inside front pads.
Always store the pads properly, so they can be replaced exactly where they came from.
Torque on the front bolt is 24 lbs ft and on the two rear bolts it’s 17 lb ft
Align rear ‘piston slot’ with the ‘pad pin’

PROCESS
• Loosen the lugs on all 4 wheels. Drive front wheels onto a board to provide room for the floor jack. Use the proper jacking points, proper jack stand points, and remove the wheels.
• Unscrew the front driver's-side speed bleeder 1/4 to 1/3 turn. This gives the ball and spring inside room to release brake fluid through the aperture under pressure.
• Get in the car, pump the brake pedal about 15 times until about 1/2 cup of brake fluid has pumped into the bottle. Close the speed bleeder. BEFORE removing the plastic hose from the bleeder remember to undo the bottle cap to relieve the air pressure; otherwise, it will spray all over. Replace the rubber cap onto the speed bleeder.
• Replenish the fluid lost from the master cylinder with new fluid as you work from wheel to wheel around the car. Next do the front passenger's-side and repeat the process.
• Repeat the process on the rear brakes while topping up the fluid as the reservoir level falls. Be sure not to over fill the reservoir.
• Bleed each line a little once again and give the reservoir a final top-up.
• Final check with a dry paper towel on each bleed screw and pump to ensure all are dry.
• Replace the wheels and torque to 80 ft lbs.
• Take it for a test drive. Exercise the brakes lightly for a bit and then more heavily. NOTE: If installing racing brake pads at the same time, follow the bedding instructions.

SPEEDBLEEDERS
Available fro www.speedbleeders.com. Part # SB10125. - Although the threads are metric (thread pitch is 10mm x 1.25) the hex nut to install, open, or remove is typically 3/8". - Do NOT over tighten. The torque is 32 to 40 inch lbs. Over tightening will damage the screws. Under tightening will cause a leak.

SPEEDBLEEDERS BAG & HOSE MODIFICATION
Replace the bag with a plastic bottle - the wider the better for stability. Remove the plastic hose from the plastic bag and inturn place it into the cap of the plastic bottle by drilling a hole into the cap. Make it just large enough to squeeze the plastic hose through very tightly. The old fluid can easily be transfered into any empty container and disposed of properly and the modified bottle reused.

BRAKE FLUID
ATE super blue racing fluid, DOT 4, is a popular choice but there are seveal that are good or better. What you want is good temperature ratings and low moisture absorbtion. Some high temperature race fluids absorb moisture quickly and are designed to be purged very frequently. One quart / liter is more than enough but buy two so you will always have some on hand. Never reuse brake fluid. How often you do a complete flush depends on how often you track.

[Agentmulli]

Wow dlq04 :eek: , thanks for the comprehensive notes and advice. I absorb info like that like a sponge. I am definitely learning about track preparation and advice from people like you and Perry, who have a considerable amount of experience, is appreciated.

Yes, I do take my car to the dealership for most of the maintenance now but, I do plan on taking over most of the maintenance myself and a proper maintenance manual will be high on the list. I take a very cautious approach to maintenance, that's one reason why I've avoided most of it on this car so far. I know a service technician at Honda and I request him to do all my work (which hasn't been much) because I do want it done right. It's seems kind of strange that a certified commercial-jet aircraft mechanic would avoid working on his car but, I do...at least until I know I can put it back together with the same integrity it had before I took it apart.

Again, thanks for the great info and advice dlq! :thumbsup:


:devil:

[monkeymaker]

Hey Tim, I appreciate your appreciation :D, but honestly I'll pretty much always defer to the likes of dlq04 and hecash on these matters. Their experience and expertise absolutely dwarfs mine. Hell, they're usually the dudes I turn to when I need to learn about something! :) That said, what little I know is always just a phone call or pm away...

[dlq04]

experience = old fart

expertise = doing it over and over and finally getting it right, or picking someone's brain who got it right the first time

anyways glad to help in a small way.......