Trouble starting

[TrumpetTitan]

I just bought a 2002 S2K with 68K miles on it in November, and I'm having trouble getting it started. I searched this forum for people with similar symptoms, and my symptoms seemed to match this thread the best.

http://forums.s2kca.com/showthread.php?t=32935&highlight=slow+starting+when+cold

I think the cold may just be coincidental, however. I replaced the battery, since it did look old and after trying to start for a quite a few seconds one day, the display went off (which led me to assume that I had drained the battery). I replaced the battery on Saturday, and it started up just fine (after sitting for a couple of days in 17 degree weather). However, this morning...same problem.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.:o

[kgf3076]

Has the stereo been replaced and maybe an amplifier installed? These will run a battery down because they draw some power all the time.

[TrumpetTitan]

No, I'm pretty sure the car has a stock stereo. I sure hope that this isn't a battery related problem since i just bought a new battery:mad:

[kgf3076]

Something is draining the battery and if it kills it over night, it's pretty substantial. You need to find out what kind of current draw you have with the engine not running. You're going to have to get it running and take it somewhere (like where you just bought the new battery) and have them run a quiescent current draw and voltage output test on the charging system.

[repiv]

I think KGF has it right on. Cold can diminish the efficiency of even a new battery and if you have a significant current draw somewhere in the car, this could quickly take the battery to below its threshold for cranking and firing up an engine. You may have the equivalent to a light staying on. For example could your trunk light be stuck on? It would have to be a draw similar to this.
I had a draw on mine for months and I didn't know it, but when it got cooler, I would get a low voltage warning on my voltmeter just before I hit the starter button. It wasn't so low that it wouldn't start but had I left it longer, it would have been dead. It turned out to be my Garmin power cord/speaker being plugged into a "constant" hot power supply. Once I unplugged it, it's been fine since.

[TrumpetTitan]

Thanks to repiv and kgf for your responses. Hopefully the problem is only something that simple...but I'm puzzled because the battery really is cranking the engine well, but it just doesn't turn over. As I mentioned earlier, I bought the battery on Saturday and drove it that afternoon. I also drove it a few times on Sunday with no problem.

When i went to buy the battery I first asked the shop if they could test the old one, and they said no. When I told them the symptoms, they said it was probably a bad battery, so I got one. Maybe they were just playing a little trick to sell me the battery, but I figure a new battery on a 2002 car that I just bought could only be a good thing.

I'll try and find a place that can test my car for a power draw after work and then I'll keep this thread updated.

[repiv]

I'm puzzled because the battery really is cranking the engine well, but it just doesn't turn over.
What you're saying then, is that the engine just won't fire up. You could still have a constant draw somewhere (a short maybe), but if it's cranking well and just not starting, you should also take a look at other things.
1. When was the last time you did anything with the spark plugs? They may be the wrong type or the wrong gap or perhaps too many deposits on them.
2. Are you using good fuel? Is there any chance it's cold enough that you may have ice in the fuel line?
3. How's your air filter?
4. Your idle air control system might be acting up.

Any one or a combination of the above, combined with the cold and a slightly drained battery could create starting problems. A strong battery could overcome the above. Do you have a block heater? Try plugging it in for a couple of hours. What weight of oil are you using? Do you hear the fuel pump prime when you first turn the key full ON? It should whine for a couple of seconds. Sometimes, when it's cold out, I'll prime the fuel system a couple of key cycles before I hit the starter button.
17*F is really not that cold. I've started mine as low as -13*F without plugging it in. Even though it cranks really slow, it still fires up. If yours is cranking well, this leads me to believe something else is not right.

[TrumpetTitan]

According to the dealer, this car is all stock. I haven't done any work on it myself, so i assume it has the OEM spark plugs. I've filled it up with premium fuel twice sinced I've owned it (Shell then Sunoco).

I have tried priming it multiple times, and I can hear the quiet "whirrr" sound each time I turn the key to the on position.

Where is the air filter located on the S2K, and how do I check it? I don't know all that much about the inner workings of my car, but I'm willing to learn to take care of my new toy.

[repiv]

The dealer may or may not be telling you the truth. If those are the original plugs, they may be quite fouled by now. I've never believed that the stock plugs can last 100K miles.
The air filter is in that big black box just behind the radiator. Undo all the clips and the lid comes off. Pull the little ring and the filter will come up and off. If it's clogged, that might explain a few things.
Check out the top of the "How To" section of this forum. There are lots of threads on just about every maintenance item, with pictures. I think I even put one in there about how to change the air filter.

[TrumpetTitan]

Update:

My friend called last night and suggested I try unlocking the car multiple times with the remote key fob to ensure the anti-theft device wasn't engaged. I decided to try just for the heck of it. It started right up! I later realized that I had grabbed a spare key and fob while on the phone. I used the spare key and fob again this morning, and it started right up again.:think:

[repiv]

Update:

My friend called last night and suggested I try unlocking the car multiple times with the remote key fob to ensure the anti-theft device wasn't engaged. I decided to try just for the heck of it. It started right up! I later realized that I had grabbed a spare key and fob while on the phone. I used the spare key and fob again this morning, and it started right up again.:think:
Wow! Who would have thought that it was the immobilizer being goofy. This disables the fuel pump. On those occasions, however, you should not have heard the fuel pump prime for those first couple of seconds. I have installed a fuel pump defeat switch on mine and when I forget to flip the switch, it'll crank all day and not start.
You should re-program the offending key fob and key. I think there is a "How To" in here somewhere.

[TrumpetTitan]

I may have been hearing something else. It was a whirring sound that was made as the tach display goes from 9K down to zero when the instrument panel lights up.

I don't know if the mystery has been solved though. I wouldn't be surprised if it still refused to turn over one morning.

[repiv]

Several things can whirr when you key the ignition. The heater fan if you've got it turned on. The radio can mask other stuff if it's turn on. The fuel pump should come from behind you.

[TrumpetTitan]

Well...I thought I had solved this problem, but unfortunately, I couldn't get mine to start yet again this cold morning. I'm pretty sure that I've been using the master key (it has some tarnish, and it doesn't have those little tiny bumps between the teeth).

Also, the tachometer would display ~300 RPM as the engine was trying to start. After trying several times, I gave up.

When I stepped out of the car, I could smell fuel, so I don't think the fuel pump was being shut off this time. Maybe I flooded it?

[repiv]

You're NOT touching the gas pedal, are you? Unless you've got leaky injectors or bad sparkplugs, giving it gas during the starting procedure is about the only way to flood this thing. If it's flooded, then hold the gas pedal on the floor while you crank it. Keep it there between attempts. Pumping it will only make it worse.
How's the air filter?

[TrumpetTitan]

Well, after the first couple attempts I did push the gas pedal halfway, then all the way as I tried to start it, since this is what the owners manual recommended. I let up after each attempt too, so I probably did flood it.

When I get home I'll check the air filter. Should I also check the spark plugs? I saw your How-To about that and you've made it look doable.

[repiv]

If it's getting fuel, then you may not be getting adequate spark. Check plugs for wetness and check for spark while they are out. Where thick gloves, install the plug into a coilpack, touch the plug thread to a metal part of the valve cover and crank engine.
Now, when you tried the first couple of times, how long do you hold the start button? At least 10 seconds, I hope. Once it's flooded, you'll need the gas to the floor and crank for up to 15 seconds. If you don't hear a "bark" at least, you may have ignition problems.

[TrumpetTitan]

Gas to the floor got it started. When I turned on the fan after starting it this way, I could smell fuel, so it must have been flooded. Oops. It's been starting up just fine throughout the New Year's weekend. Thank you very much for your help.

Hopefully I won't have this problem too much more. I did check the air filter and it looks only slightly soiled. It easily looks cleaner than the filter being replaced on the How-to.

I didn't have a torque wrench so I didn't want to try checking the spark plugs until I could get one. They're expensive! Thank goodness for Auto Zone's loan-a-tool program. I'll check them soon.

[repiv]

At least you now know it was flooded. Typically, my experience has indicated that the S2000 is quite difficult to flood unless the operator tends to manipulate the gas during start up or doesn't crank it sufficiently long enough, hence requiring another crank. This can confuse the ECU into pushing too much fuel on the next crank since a cold start routine does activate an enrichening phase already. I've seen people who crank it so briefly that I doubt the engine sees more than 1 or 2 complete revolutions.
If this not the case with you then you may have a more tecnhnical problem like dribbling injectors. Just keep monitoring the situation. You may have adjusted your starting regimen just enough that you may never see this again.

[TrumpetTitan]

Well, the car has failed to start again. It didn't bark or shake like it usually does when it's trying to start. This time it happened away from my home so I called AAA. The guy came and hooked up a jump-starter and the engine started right up. Clearly the battery was the problem this time. The AAA guy told me that the engine needs a lot of power to start and that this car should have been designed with space for a more powerful battery.

What's frustrating is that I literally bought this battery about a month ago. I'll find a place that can check for a power draw, like you mentioned earlier, and if there isn't a power draw, I'm going to have a "nice little conversation" with the guy at the auto parts store who sold me this battery.

What brand/type of battery do you guys recommend for more reliability in the cold? The guy at the auto parts store sold me an Interstate Battery.

[speedracer]

I had a stock S2000 for many years and it always started in the morning cold or hot. Recently, I sold my stock S2000 for a turbo. The symptoms you describe are similar to the situation I have been living with in my turbo. In my case, changing the spark plugs fixed the problem. The car was running rich, foueld the plugs and made it hard to start.

Since you got the car used, it may have modifications to the engine managment programs that the dealer was not aware of. Consequently, someone else may need to look at your car to see if it has been modified. At this point, you may want to change the plugs which, while it is expensive, having a car that does not start is a fast path to insanity.

Good luck.

[TrumpetTitan]

having a car that does not start is a fast path to insanity.

WHY SO SERIOUS?!?!

hee hee

[speedracer]

For me it went like this:

9 years of starting every morning without fail.

First week of Turbo,
Sunday morning go out to car, will not start, 24 hours of messing with it, no start,
Monday morning, push car down driveway, the begining of the path toward crazy town,

Monday during the day. 10 calls to tow truck/ shop, friends, shop, towtruck, multil level discussion on how to pay the tow truck...... Closer and closer to the edge,.......

Monday at luch, plugs changed, car starts, Sanity returns.

So,

Take it too the shop before you get stranded and go crazy.

This should be a very very reliable car and start all the time. So if that is not the case. Something is wrong with it!

[repiv]

Well, the car has failed to start again. It didn't bark or shake like it usually does when it's trying to start. This time it happened away from my home so I called AAA. The guy came and hooked up a jump-starter and the engine started right up. Clearly the battery was the problem this time. The AAA guy told me that the engine needs a lot of power to start and that this car should have been designed with space for a more powerful battery.

What's frustrating is that I literally bought this battery about a month ago. I'll find a place that can check for a power draw, like you mentioned earlier, and if there isn't a power draw, I'm going to have a "nice little conversation" with the guy at the auto parts store who sold me this battery.

What brand/type of battery do you guys recommend for more reliability in the cold? The guy at the auto parts store sold me an Interstate Battery.
Have the battery tested. I can't believe it's the battery. They just don't not work once in a while. If it's a bad battery, it's going to consistently fail. It may have just been coincidental that it started when the AAA jumped it. Batteries don't usually have "gremlins" and that's what it sounds like you've got.

[desmo4]

As you are going through batteries faster than oil changes I would recommend getting a D51 Optima. It is at this time, the only deep discharge battery capable of recovering to a usable state up to 400 times. unlike the standard flooded electrolyte variety which suffers permanent and or fatal damage when deep discharged once.

Jonathan

[TrumpetTitan]

Update: Tested the battery yesterday and it seemed fine. I was even able to get the car to start, but it still took a lot of time. Then I checked the spark plugs, and they didn't look too great (the tips of the electrodes where very white, while the rest of the plug, from the washer to the electrode, was almost black) so I replaced them. I was able to start the car very easily, and the car seems to idle lower (around 700-800 RPM) and quieter now. :martini2:

I think the new spark plugs have done the trick, but I won't know for sure until I give it a cold start tomorrow morning.

Many thanks to the Xviper and speedracer for your advice, and I'm especially grateful for the spark plug how-to. :clap: This made the process very easy for me.:)

[repiv]

If the spark plug change helped, you might look further into the fuel injector condition. The white tip may be an indication of extreme lean, which might be caused by clogged injectors (poor fuel delivery). New plugs can overcome a slight fuel delivery issue. You might want to try some concentrated fuel injector cleaner. If you've never done this, the injectors may simply be performing poorly. This may be compounded by a fuel quality issue during this season.
Can you comment on your weather conditions during these times when the car would not start. You might have water in the fuel and this can contribute to fuel delivery problems as well. Again, fuel injector cleaner contains elements that can alleviate the problems presented by water, either in liquid or solid form and improve the quality of any sub-standard fuel you may have been using.

[TrumpetTitan]

The weather ranged from about 15*F to 35*F when the engine was having trouble. It seemed to take just as long to start, regardless of the temperature. However, if I had started the car (having to give it 2-4 15-second cranks) within the past 3 or 4 hours, the car would start quickly.

With the new plugs, the car starts very quickly and easily in weather as cold as 20*F (it hasn't been colder than that since I put the new plugs in). I'll put in some fuel injector cleaner in to make sure it keeps starting this smoothly.

[repiv]

The ambient temps you've been experiencing, combined with your relative humidity where you live, is prime conditions for condensation build-up in the fuel system. Do you know if your gas stations go to a "winter blend"? Around here, when winter approaches, almost all filling stations will use a small amount of gasline anti-freeze in all grades of fuel.
Try the injector cleaner and if the label says nothing about anti-freeze, then throw in a bottle of that, too.