Brakes, metal dragging, yadda yadda yadda

[MacGyver]

I posted the same on the "other" board, but so far I have not had a successful resolution, so I wanted to see what people here had to say...

The ol' girl has sat on the sidelines unused for a good 7+ months due to a continuing problem with partially seizing calipers, being out of work for several months and not needing to drive anywhere, and then using the winter beater for the last several months as I rebuilt the calipers. The cause of the frequent seizures was found and rectified (poor seal on overused speed bleeders due to worn out pipe dope, added new pipe tape).

All four calipers were rebuilt, one with a new kit (the one that was truly seizing this time), the rest were rebuilt (using the old seals, just cleaned up and regreased) just because the system was now open and I felt it should be done. However, all four wheels drag quite a bit, even while on jackstands and being spun by hand, but they're obviously not completely seized.

So I took it for a quick spin, thinking it may be just rust build-up over the last 7-8 months... less than a mile, never made it above 40mph. The brake pedal was somewhat soft about halfway through the pedal travel, but tightened up near the end. Several quick pumps brought it to the stiffness I remember, but it would go back to the same way upon the next need to brake. The emergency brake needs to be pulled up higher than normal, too, though only by a couple more clicks (not outrageous).

The scraping sound didn't decrease much, if at all, so I pulled it back in to the driveway. Within that short time span, the rotors on all four corners were burning hot. <sigh> This is new, as only one caliper was partially seizing before I stopped using the car all of those months ago. Since then, all four calipers have been rebuilt, whether they needed it or not, within the last month (give or take).

If it was air in the system, I imagine the pedal would feel soft regardless of the pumping. The fluid is definitely clean, considering I've probably pumped over a gallon of fluid through the system doing multiple bleeds. Could this be something tied to the master brake cylinder (the head end) rather than the calipers (the tail end)? When opening the speed bleeders (cold, haven't tried hot), there's no pressure built up... at least not enough to make the fluid squirt (or dribble) out on its own. It requires a press on the pedal to get fluid flowing out.

My bi-annual emissions inspection is coming up in mid-January, and the cold days are starting to prevent working on the car (my hands cramp up in anything below 60). I'm trying to get this resolved without resorting to towing it to the dealer.

Suggestions on what to look for now?

Thanks!

[repiv]

Parking an already "seasoned" car for that long can aggravate problems that may have just been starting. You mentioned the fear of rust build up in some areas. Did you clean up the little channels that the pads have to slide in? Those are pretty rough to begin with and over time, they can make is tough for the pads to move when they need to.

Did you clean and re-grease all caliper pins? (2 on each caliper.) These can prevent a pad from fully letting go of the rotor surface. Thus the hot brakes from driving around. It's like you are partially applying the brakes all the time. With pads just installed and not having pumped up the system, the whole caliper should be able to move freely in and out within the caliper brackets. I can only assume that you did the re-build right. Old pistons (and their corresponding bores) may need a bit of a workout with emery cloth to make it completely smooth again. Over the years, moisture can pit these surfaces.

You may still have a lot of air in the system even though you say you pushed a gallon of fluid through already. If you let the level in the master reservoir get too close to the bottom hole, you can draw air in on those strokes, but when you go out to take a look, the fluid level can appear to be still covering the hole. Having air in the system can produce the results you describe. A mushy pedal feel that can come back when you pump the system. This only momentarily compresses the air to the point that it can make the pedal feel firm. That firmness slowly goes away as the air expands again.

The Ebrake will need more and more clicks as the rear pads gets thinner with use. This would be normal.

At rest, after the system has "equalized" any pressure buildup, opening up the bleeders should not produce any out flow of fluid. There should be no pressure in the system if it's sat for a while and only when you apply some pedal pressure should anything come out of the bleeders. You may also have a leak in the master brake cylinder. Does your fluid go down over usage and time? See any leaks in the engine bay or in the foot pedal area? If fluid is leaking past the master plunger internally, you may not see any exterior leaks, but the cylinder would still need replacing.

What about the ABS block? We generally don't drive to the point of activating the ABS and over the years, the internals of the block can get "sticky". I typically try to activate the ABS a couple times a year by slamming on the brakes hard on a loose (gravel) or slippery surface (wet, ice, snow). Corrosion within the block can be problematic and can be a place for air to stay trapped. Maybe try to get the ABS working a couple of times, then try for another bleed (after you are sure the caliper assembly does slide freely on the pins).

[MacGyver]

Yep, cleaned and re-lubed all of the pins. I thought the pads were slid into those side channels all of the way, though, and it was the job of the pins to allow pad-to-pad movement... I didn't realize the pads themselves moved in relation to its corresponding bracket. If that's true, it's another point of attack.

Even with air in the system, that should not make the calipers continue to press inwards, right?

I also believed the e-brake was a mechanical system that pressed on the piston... if the cam mechanism built into the piston (the part that requires you to rotate the piston as you're re-seating it during a rebuild) has slowly adjusted over time as the pads wear down, wouldn't the e-brake continue to require the same distance to make the pads grab? I could understand if the cam mechanism was not part of the piston.

I see no leaks under the car other than what I've spilled in doing the bleeds. I think I could handle replacing the master cylinder at about $250, but man, if it's the ABS block, that's triple the price :( Any way to narrow it down between the two?

[repiv]

Yes, the pads need to able to shift slightly within the caliper (to unsqueeze the rotor) and the caliper must move on the pins so each pad can apply equal pressure.
If you've just pumped the pedal to firm it up due to air, then after you let go, that compressed air will continue to exert pressure till it can fully expand again.
As for the ebrake, I believe this is just another small piston with it's own tiny reservoir within the caliper that further applies force on the pads when the ebrake is used.
To know if it's the master brake cyl or the ABS block will be tough. As I said before, I would word the ABS, then do another good bleed. This may or may not eliminate the block.

[MacGyver]

Just a side note for the next person coming along... after your response about the e-brake I did a little researching by looking at old pictures of inside the caliper body, etc. I can't post the pictures from here, but the e-brake is definitely a mechanical system within the caliper body, not another piston. As I suspected, the brake cable pushes against the main piston (though i believe it does so without rotating the main spindle to avoid ratcheting the mechanism). This allows the e-brake to work with no fluid in the system, as long as the piston was already within a normal distance to the rotor... if you tried it on a fresh bleed (piston pushed all of the way in) with worn pads, there will likely be too little piston travel for the e-brake to fully engage the pads to the rotor.

[repiv]

I just took another look and you're right. The ebrake cable turns a cam (which, BTW, needs to be cleaned and greased once in a while). Now, does this cam act directly on the piston or does it act upon the fluid?
But you mentioned that all 4 corners were hot after a drive so it can't just be a sticky ebrake.

[repiv]

Calling Spitfire S. I think he's taken these things completely apart.

[MacGyver]

Just looked over spitFire's rebuild post:
s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=672065&st=0&#entry15398932
He mentioned the e-brake system does not work without fluid, which would lean towards a piston-type movement, not my previously suggested mechanical linkage. Hmmmm...

But as you said, the e-Brake system would only affect the rear brakes, and I'm having issues with all four corners.

I leave for Thanksgiving vacation tomorrow, so I won't have even a slim chance of testing anything until mid next week. Grrrr, I do not want to pay the dealership to come back and say "the calipers needs to be replaced" when I know that's not the problem.

[repiv]

Have a good turkey day, bud. With some tryptophan in your system, you may have new insight into your problem (or fall asleep, whichever happens first).

[SpitfireS]

About that e-brake system:
I did say on S2ki: I do know it doesn't work without fluid, as in: it doesn't pump the piston any further out, just the same stroke in and out.
I think that is what MG is saying: the pads need to be close to the rotor for the e-brake to work, once they are it will brake without fluid.
You do need fluid to get the piston out the first time, after replacing pads for example.

Anyway..

About MG's problem: the soft pedal probably is air in the rear calipers.
The e-brake system has lots of cavities and places for small air bubbles to hide.
They just wouldn't bleed out with the caliper mounted on the car.
In the end I removed the caliper - brake line still attached obviously - and pointed the bleeder and e-brake end straight up, opened it for a gravity bleed while tapping the caliper body with a small hammer, also moving the calper around as much as possible.
Finally the tiny air bubbles came out, the brakes were fine after that.

But that could only partly explain the 4 hot rotors.
My rotors were never hot after the rebuild, just a soft pedal.

How do the rotors look now?
Is the brake surface clean / shiny?
A hot front rotor can almost only mean: stuck piston / stuck caliper.
That ^ or a LOT of air in the caliper itself that expands after the first brake application and holds the pads against the rotor, making the pads hotter and hotter, expanding more and more....
Air in the ABS pump will not get that hot so quickly I guess as it is far away from heat.

There are no ABS lights on in the dash?

[MacGyver]

Interesting thought about the air getting warmed up and continuing to exert pressure on the pads... since it's not incompressible like fluid, it wouldn't be a hard pressure (complete seizure), but it apply a light but continuous pressure, similar to what I'm seeing. I wonder, though, how much air would be required to have such an effect... I would think that much air would also create a practically non-functional pedal, making it the equivalent of stepping on a sponge.

The rotors aren't clean/shiny, but that's due more to a layer of pulverized rust at the moment... if I swipe my finger across them they're shiny, so the pads are definitely connecting. I know the front pistons are good due to the rebuild and the fact that I could move the piston in/out by hand before attaching it to the brake lines again.

No ABS lights. I know the ABS system does a self-check at start-up, but is there any chance it can tel if the block is going bad due to a leaky seal, etc.?


I'm off to SC/NC for the holidays. Happy Turkey Day to everyone! :)

[desmo4]

I just installed a set of front re manufactured calipers, $70.00 each from Hondaautomotiveparts.com. And they only charge a core charge if you keep the old one over a month. Plus they included Fedex return labels. My old ones wouldn't compress if you stood on them, the new ones can be compressed with my fingers. And with Speed bleeders it took about 25 minutes to install both with a new set of Mintex Extreme pads. I am going to add a pair of Mugen rotors in a couple weeks. I mixed MOS2 powder and Honda high temp grease into a thick paste and applied a very thin coat on the sliding surfaces. The bang from the right front when I hit the brakes is gone.

Jonathan

[MacGyver]

I broke down and had it towed to a trusted service station this weekend. Hopefully the final bill isn't a complete raping...

[SpitfireS]

I broke down ...
:yikes:
Brake related?

:(

[MacGyver]

:yikes:
Brake related?

:(

Ah, sorry... replace "broke down" with "gave in". That should be less ambiguous...

I dropped it off last weekend, but I called Thursday morning when I hadn't heard from them yet. The guy who would be working on the car has been out sick for a few days, so it was going to take a few days for him to get caught up (they said possibly today). Then we had this frikkin' blizzard that dropped nearly two feet of snow!!! I'm imagining my car sitting out in their parking lot covered in a mound of snow, tempting the snow plow to ram it.

With Christmas in only a few days, I have a sinking feeling it will be after the New Year before I get my car back.

To top it all off, I lost my Mid-Atlantic "badge" (one originally designed simply to show you were an active and non-scamming member) on that "other" site because I refuse to pay them their yearly fee. :rolleye2: Anyone else want to smack me in the face today? :poke:

[SpitfireS]

You should talk to XV about that badge......
He knows all about internet copyright and where it can lead to.

[repiv]

The loss of your badge was purely an act committed by your Community Organizer. It was his decision to remove it. If you find one of my old posts over there, you will see that I still retain the "Prairie Redliners" and "Vintage" badges in my sig. This is only because the CO for P.R. and the mod for Vintage chose to keep them there. As you know, I haven't had anything to do with S2Ki for some years now.
As for the badges, I don't believe they are copywrited since many of them were developed by the members themselves. They don't really "belong" to that site and they were freely given up by those who designed them.
If you really wanted to have one in your sig, you could simply "copy/paste" the URL into the picture "script prompt" and put it into your sig and since you are using it at S2Ki, there isn't much they can do about it.

[MacGyver]

The badge issue is a bit of a hot topic on there right now. Here's the original thread that was closed before I saw it:
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=751186

Since I couldn't add to that post, I started my own and posted my feelings. Some at least appreciate what I said, even if they didn't agree with it, but too many (IMO) have such black and white attitudes, "It's the RULES!".
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=47&t=753264

Many of those guys haven't been around the board long enough to remember what the good ol' days were like, nor what caused the split that created S2kCA (many don't even know S2kCA exists). In a nutshell, the board went from a warm home away from home to a cold business model that was designed to make money, not friends. The fact that some kinship still exists is a testament to (some of) the people involved, not the "inviting-ness" of the board.

Oh, and XV, I seriously considered adding in the link directly, but I figured I've already pissed off so many of the higher ups there they would be overjoyed at a simple reason to boot me completely.




Anyway, back to the car. Received a call from the shop yesterday evening. They are stumped. They suspected the incorrect fluid (they've never seen completely clear brake fluid, only slightly tinted), maybe non-DOT3/4... but I checked when I got home and all of my containers were Prestone DOT3 in the yellow bottle, so that was out. Their next step is to swap out all four calipers with rebuilt units, with the thinking that I made a mistake in rebuilding them (yes, all four of them :rolleyes: even though I've rebuilt maybe 20 calipers in my life without issue). I don't agree with this step, but I cannot argue with any real logic as I have no solid argument for another cause.

I figure rebuilds alone are going to set me back $500+, I don't want to think about the cost of labor on top of whatever else they decide to replace next... this blows.

[SpitfireS]

Yes... it way to late.. but you could ask them to look at the master & brake booster.
I know you did not touch it but maybe, just mabe, something when wrong in there while doing the flush?
I mean.. where is the pressure coming from?
If its not your foot on the pedal, it might be the brake booster?
Hopefully they have figured something like this also.
As long as the calipers don't leak I say the rebuild went ok enough to not cause this problem.

Just a little off topic: someone should ask what the real costs are to run a server like S2ki.
And ask what the income is.
Publish the numbers and point people to those number whenever they start talking about paying to keep S2ki alive.

ITS THE PEOPLE THAT KEEP S2KI (and S2KCA) ALIVE!

Sorry about this.

:crazy:

[repiv]

I don't wish to take this thread off topic too much more, but it does look like it IS a matter of CO ego and the need to exercise "control". Rules can be relaxed and I'm a prime example. Remember that HondaGal is in Prairie Redliners and it was she, who first made the rules as to who should and shouldn't have badges. If she was to adhere to those rules, my badges would have been stripped long ago, yet they still remain. Let's just say that HondaGal is a more lenient and understanding admin, even though she is not the CO of P.R. She could impose her will if she so wished. I've never met your "tacoboy", but it sure does look like he wants to rule the roost. I mean, let's face it, everyone knows "MacGyver" and what he means to the S2000 world and to strip his badge is a woefully silly act.

Anyway, back to the brakes thing, I'm sure you are quite competent when it comes to brake jobs, but is there a possibility that when you put it together the last time, one of the spring clips may have been abnormally bent or cracked or even broken after installation or shifted out of position?

[repiv]

Just a little off topic: someone should ask what the real costs are to run a server like S2ki.
And ask what the income is.
Publish the numbers and point people to those number whenever they start talking about paying to keep S2ki alive.

ITS THE PEOPLE THAT KEEP S2KI (and S2KCA) ALIVE!

Yes, it is the people (and the sponsors) that keep these boards alive, but in the case of S2Ki, it is strictly a private enterprise, pure and simple. If it makes money for the owner, it will continue on. "Keeping it alive" only means that if it no longer generates the income of which the owner has become accustomed to, he will close it down. It has little to do with how much it costs to maintain it. It has to do with profit margin and the ability to not have to have a "real" job.
For example, there is a local general car interest forum originating locally here in Calgary. This forum has grown immensely over the years and is very popular with the "kids" and "ricer" crowd. The owner also owns a porn site, but I digress. His car interest site earns him in the neighbourhood of $10,000.00 per MONTH, in a good year. Once up and running, yearly expenses are minimal.
I was privy to some of this "S2Ki" information once and I still have a pretty good idea of what those number are, however, I am not at liberty to "publish" those figures. It was told to me in private and was not meant for the public domain. Email me if you wish to know. ;)

[MacGyver]

XV, I'd be happy to hear rough numbers, though I imagine I have a pretty good idea what they may be. I'm willing to bet good money I could comfortably live in the same lifestyle I've grown accustomed to as an engineer on the profits made with that board. If you get some free time, you should read the more recent comments I placed there (second link in my post above)... I'm told it will be locked at midnight, but at least they're leaving it open long enough to get in some final comments. The biggest shock to me was the comments by one of the guys I know fairly well, having spent time at his house and the like... either some of these cannot appreciate how the board came to be in its current state by riding on the backs of our hard work (certainly possible, considering many there have only been on there for 3-4 years), or they're so obtuse to the bigger picture... I liken it (very loosely, of course) to the soldier who commits unthinkable atrocities and later claims "I was just doing what was commanded of me". How can you not consider at least part of my argument worth mulling over before attacking it in a full frontal assault?



Anyway, to the car. The shop called earlier. Cost to replace all four calipers, rebleed, etc. $1,300. <sigh> FINE! Just do it. I know this isn't likely to solve the problem, but I'll publicly eat my words if it does (I never did get the chance to clean/grease the pad pin tracks, XV, so that may actually be the problem). Yes, it's a chunk of cash, but at least I won't have 10 years worth of rust (and coming from Boston salted roads, that's a LOT) built up on the damn things. I'm more worried about the incremental changes in the bill as more things are replaced if this doesn't work. $270 for a master cylinder, $550 for a vacuum assist, $850 for an ABS module. Hell, the value of my car may double after all of this is over! :(

I'm starting to think I should have traded the ol' girl in for that 370Z convertible after all <cringe for even saying that>.

[repiv]

XV, I'd be happy to hear rough numbers, though I imagine I have a pretty good idea what they may be.
I'll send you a PM.

[MacGyver]

I'm actually both disheartened by that badge thread (what a waste of good energy) and amused at the same time... it's kind of funny to see people saying I didn't deserve the badge in the first place based on the rules, but they're unaware that is only based on the most recent revision of the rules. Someone was kind enough to dig up the old threads with the original rules, and I fit in quite nicely. How do you look someone square in the eye with a smile after they've essentially told you to conform to the rules or piss off, especially when you helped shaped the rules in the first place? <shake head> Kind of takes the good taste out of the potato salad at the next BBQ.

[MacGyver]

They replaced all four calipers to the tune of $1,300 :cry: but at least she's back up and running. :) I still need to bed in the pads because they're the originals (removed long before they were through), and the race pads that were on the car (now dead) did a nice job wearing in the rotors :rolleyes:

The feel is a bit soft t the top of the pedal, but the guy says to give it a few weeks of play to bed the used pads to the used rotors and see how they feel. If I jam on the pedal it definitely stops, but at the moment it doesn't feel as sharp as it used to be. I'll give it some time, though I don't see a whole lot of driving while it's cold out.

[repiv]

If it feels too spongy at the top of the pedal, they may not have bled all the air out well enough. New pads or even different pad material don't normal contribute to a soft feel. Replacing calipers involves trying to get a lot of air out and although it's not rocket science to bleed S2000 brakes, it isn't always intuitive nor is it always a foolproof procedure.