'Finding' on diff drain plug - can somebody recognize it?

[geras003]

I was changing diff fluid yesterday in my car and made a very unpleasant discovery on the magnetic cap - a piece of metal of something...

Here are some pictures:

http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp190/geras003/S2000/IMG_0646.jpg
http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp190/geras003/S2000/IMG_0647.jpg
http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp190/geras003/S2000/IMG_0648.jpg

Is a very big trouble awaiting for me...??
I don't know if it was the only piece which came out with a fluid cause I drained it in kinda like "closed" container.
I changed fluid last time ~10K miles ago but those were very hard miles including 5 or 7 track days.. I didn't do any clutch drops on anything of that kind... But I don't have a CDV since it was removed with a clutch swap..

Can somebody recognize where this piece is could come from?

[geras003]

Here is Dave's response via PM:

Aleksey, that does not look good. At least one of the teeth sheared off the tip. I can't tell for sure if it's the ring or pinion that it came from but the angle would indicate it's from the pinion gear. However, judging from how badly the point is rounded off, I would suspect the corresponding ring gear will also be worn badly and this would apply to all the teeth on both ring and pinion. The piece breaking off may be an indication that the ring and pinion has been wearing poorly and the calibration is way off, thus more audible noise. Bad tooth alignment is what causes noise and the noise is just a manifestation of teeth coming together improperly. The worst result of this is excessive heat and that's what likely broke that piece off. This is not to say that the sound you hear could still be from something else, like the clutch.
7 track days and 10K miles on one fluid change is quite a bit. I've always contended that 10K miles is about the average that a street driven S2000 should go between diff fluid changes and that any car that is used for track duty should be changed more frequently depending on the duration of each track event.
My suggestion would be that you drive the car as you normally do for another 1000 to 1500 miles and dump the fluid. Next time, drain it into a completely clean container so you can examine the contents in sunlight and see if you see any flecks swirling around in the fluid. It'll look like you found gold when panning for it at a river. If there is a lot of debris the diff needs work. Might be time to have a PuddyDaddy diff put in. The problem is finding a shop who knows what they are doing and also to determine exactly what might be broken in there.
The strange thing about your pictures is how clean the magnet is. Did you clean it, then put the piece back on for the picture? If it wasn't that clean, how much sludge was on it? If it came out that clean, with only that piece stuck to it, something doesn't make any sense. If the calibration has gone off that bad to cause the heat to break off that piece, I would have expected a tremendous amount of sludge stuck to that magnet. Far worse than the normal amount of sludge like what you would see here:
http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/43549/2859947760025981935S500x500Q85.jpg
If the magnet was that clean when you first removed it, then you may not be in so much trouble. It may be some other incidental piece that broke off, that is unrelated to the ring and pinion.
Sorry I can't give you any encouraging news.

[geras003]

I'm not a pro but the "piece" doesn't look like it was "rounded" - wherever it came from it just have one side where it broke off - the round part has "factory finish".... The drain plug had just absolutely normal amount of slush on it (like on Dave's picture) - not anymore I would usually find, which was weird. Fluid didn't look that bad either from what I could tell wiping the traces which didn't make it into the container.. Could the alignment go off when they did my clutch? They had to take propeller shaft off, I believe..

[JonBoy]

I work with gears a fair bit here at work but I can't see the photos (internet filter). I'll try to remember to take a look when I get home tonight.

[repiv]

I meant to comment about the diff calibration. Your clutch job and the removal of the propshaft should have had no affect on the diff set-up.
Hopefully, after you drive it for a little while and dump the fluid again, you will get more clues at that time.

[Stratocaster]

I wish I have see it better. The "Rounded" fact makes be wonder. The teeth on the gears, none of them are rounded at all. inside the LSD, I don't know what they look like. Did you find anything else besides this?

[geras003]

Thanks everyone for replies! Jeff - I will try to take couple more pics tonight from different angles... I guess what I was trying to say is that I could tell exactly on which side that piece has broke off.. You can kinda see it on the first picture. The rest of it has "factory finish" and not damaged anyhow else. I wish I would have drained the fluid into empty container to see if there was anything else in there... I used one of those "closed" containers which already had some motor oil in it. I guess, I technically could still try to find out.

How could I tell if LSD is damaged?

I wish I have see it better. The "Rounded" fact makes be wonder. The teeth on the gears, none of them are rounded at all. inside the LSD, I don't know what they look like. Did you find anything else besides this?

[repiv]

How could I tell if LSD is damaged?
The only real way to tell is to take it apart. However, there is a "test" you can try. Drive slowly in full steering lock circles. Do a couple of right hand circles and then a couple of left hand circles. Don't apply too much throttle. You really just want to coast around in a circle. You don't want to lock up the diff. You want it to slip. If you hear something really out of the ordinary, you'll know something's wrong.

[jdms2k21]

How often are you supposed to change diff oil? im new to this RWD

[JH03S2K]

I change both the rear diff fluid and the tranny fluid every 15k.

[repiv]

It's cheap enough that it can be done annually or every 10K to 15K miles. If you track the car or drive it hard, you should be changing the fluid much more often.

[geras003]

Dave, did the "test" - no weird noises, no weird behaviour... Drives the same as always...
Where the hell this piece come from???:think:
Will try to fish anything out of the fluid with a magnet once I have a chance...

The only real way to tell is to take it apart. However, there is a "test" you can try. Drive slowly in full steering lock circles. Do a couple of right hand circles and then a couple of left hand circles. Don't apply too much throttle. You really just want to coast around in a circle. You don't want to lock up the diff. You want it to slip. If you hear something really out of the ordinary, you'll know something's wrong.

[repiv]

Dave, did the "test" - no weird noises, no weird behaviour... Drives the same as always...
Where the hell this piece come from???:think:
Will try to fish anything out of the fluid with a magnet once I have a chance...
If you still have that "closed" container you collected the fluid in, you should try to get into it and examine the contents. Are you certain that piece actually came out of the diff. Was it stuck on the magnet the very instant you pulled the plug?
Take a look at some of the shots I took of the diff. Nothing in there that's easily visible that resembles that piece.

http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/35222/2315925130025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2315925130025981935GqOzMl)

http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/42108/2105755810025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2105755810025981935qtillJ)

http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/44586/2341381110025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2341381110025981935XjDtGP)

http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/43443/2731721370025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2731721370025981935mayhuH)

[JonBoy]

I'm betting that it's rounded due to it being "polished" by being tumbled within the differential housing. In a confined space like that, a polishing/rounding action would be very common.

The only thing that looks thin enough to resemble that part would be the tip of a tooth on the pinion. However, the part looks quite straight, not like the helix/curve of the gears you see in the diff. It almost looks like a tab or fin that broke off inside the diff, though I don't know there is actually such a part in there.

It looks to have a constant cross-section, which is why it doesn't quite look like a tooth to me. A tooth would thicken towards the base and I'm not seeing that with this part. To have a partial tooth failure would be relatively rare as you typically either get pitting/spalling (small dots of metal coming out of the tooth face) or else a fatigue failure (entire section of the tooth breaks, usually at the root of the tooth).

More pictures would help, both from the top and from all angles.

[geras003]

Dave, I'm 100% positive it came from the diff! It was attached to magnetic plug once I took it out.... I will try to dig into that container and try to find out if there is anything else there...
Jon thanks for the comments - I will take more pictures tomorrow..

[griffon]

Personally, it would bother the hell out of me.

I would have to tear it down or I would drive myself insane(ok, MORE insane) listening for little sounds from the rear end that would indicate the big bang was coming.

It is NOT normal to find pieces like that. A little sludge maybe, but not that.

[geras003]

It also bothers the hell out of me too! That's why I'm trying to find out where it came from. I personally don't have experience how to take the diff offapart... I guess I can - not sure if I can put it up together though:) I tried to do several various runs - I don't hear anything unusual form the rear end... But my car is prettty loud with Supersprint and damn buzzing clutch though..

Personally, it would bother the hell out of me.

I would have to tear it down or I would drive myself insane(ok, MORE insane) listening for little sounds from the rear end that would indicate the big bang was coming.

It is NOT normal to find pieces like that. A little sludge maybe, but not that.

[repiv]

I personally don't have experience how to take the diff offapart... I guess I can - not sure if I can put it up together though:)
Taking the diff off, removing the back housing and putting it back on the car is just straight mechanical work. As long as you don't mess with the gears, there is no calibration needed. My "How To" shows you how. It's not an easy job but can be done by any home mechanic with tools. However, if you end up finding where that piece came from, then you may need a good rear end guy to do the rest.

[griffon]

Could Honda's drive train warranty cover that? Unless you are over 60k.

[SpitfireS]

http://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/11825/2589668660102826257S600x600Q85.jpg

At first I thought it was a piece of the locking plate, used to lock the ring adjuster.
Those 2 ring adjusters, one on each side, set the backlash and set the pre-load on the 2 Torsen bearings.
It can be a pain to get them both right, btw.

Looking at your pics again, and again, and again.. I don't think it is though.
But don't take my word for it!
;)
If it is, and the ring is now moving, you could blow the diff!

If this was my diff I would stop driving it, better safe than sorry.
Remove the diff and open it up, like XV allready mentioned, it is not that hard and there is no need to do any adjusting.

:yo:

edit: the insert is a pic of the OEM locking plate.
In the "host" picture you see the longer plate that came with the Comptech reinforced diff.

[geras003]

I have 64K on the odometer..:( So Honda warranty is not an option especially given a fact of aftermarket clutch and no CDV...
Spitfire - thanks for the comment.. It doesn't quite look like that part but it is the only part which somewhat resembles what I found.. I guess I will have to take the damn thing apart. What will be the effect on driving habits of the car if it was indeed locking plate breaking off? :think:

Thanks again everyone!

[dlq04]

Looks like an "offset key" to me. Here's some samples: http://www.jimsautoparts.com/mopar_19.gif

[geras003]

Thanks for the comment! What is it function in a diff?

Looks like an "offset key" to me. Here's some samples: http://www.jimsautoparts.com/mopar_19.gif

[dlq04]

Thanks for the comment! What is it function in a diff?

An offset is used to perfect an alignment between a spocket and pully. By chance has you car had offset tires installed? On the other hand, it could be a key that used to lock something in place, and it does not need to be offset. I've never been inside the S2000 diff; so I'm not sure what all they have in there.

I don't think I'd lose much sleep over it unless a problem showed up. I suspect it was dropped by accident during the manufacturing process and fell to the bottom of the diff. I doubt it actually worked it's way loose.

[repiv]

What will be the effect on driving habits of the car if it was indeed locking plate breaking off?
The locking plate prevents the adjusters from moving once the calibration is complete. If the adjuster was not locked, it can move and the alignment of the ring and pinion will go off. This would result in a bad gear mesh, excessive heat and the eventual destruction of the gears. However, looking at the angle of the piece that you found and the angles in Spitfire's pic, there doesn't seem to be a resemblance.

Looks like an "offset key" to me. Here's some samples: http://www.jimsautoparts.com/mopar_19.gif
Thanks for the comment! What is it function in a diff?
These are also known as "Woodruff Keys". As far as I know, there aren't any in our diffs and again, the angles don't seem to match. Here are some examples of these keys:

http://images.google.ca/images?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4ADRA_enCA340CA341&q=woodruff+key&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=wU7wSuMxh8Ywo7_8hwc&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCMQsAQwAw

In terms of "angles", the thing that bears the closest resemblance to me was the very tip of a tooth on the pinion gear that I posted up but that would mean your pinion had to have been subjected to tremendous wear to round it off like that.

[whitemike711]

Why don't you buy one of those warranties you see on tv, make sure everything is covered and then get it fixed with there money. And that way everything else will be covered as well.

[bimdub]

if I had to guess.....

looking at my PDF service manual....

section 15-4 has a picture of the "guts" of the LSD

it could possibly be one of the "fingers" from a side washer or center washer......I would be scared

[SpitfireS]

if I had to guess.....
looking at my PDF service manual....
section 15-4 has a picture of the "guts" of the LSD
it could possibly be one of the "fingers" from a side washer or center washer......I would be scared

I think you're right.
Good find.
:thumbup:
http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/45925/2666663800102826257S600x600Q85.jpg

Its worth it go go through the used oil.
Maybe with a piece of string & magnet.
See if you can find anything else.
Its hard to imagine just one finger breaking off with the other 3 still on.

Time to search for a used diff I suppose :(

[geras003]

THANKS A LOT, guys for input! I really appreciate it!

I just dug through the fluid with a magnet at lunch - nothing except very small metal shaving.. Nothing like what I found at first.
I took a picture of it anyways - I will post it tonight along with some pictures of original piece...

Thanks again!

[repiv]

Jonathan may be onto something.
So long as there aren't any other similar pieces floating around in there, you may simply have diminished capacity in the Limited Slip and the car should drive fine without that piece. If it were me, I would get it resolved.
If you get a chance to drive it when the roads are snowy or icy, put one tire on the slippery part and one tire on a dry patch like where the tire tracks have cleaned off the street. Take off moderately briskly and see if you have adequate traction from the dry side. If the LSD is working OK, you should have fairly good traction. If it's not working up to spec, you'll just spin the slippery side like crazy and go nowhere.
If it is indeed the piece that Jonathan suspects, taking the diff apart won't show you much unless you take the LSD apart and that's something that should be left to an "expert".

PS. Do you know if at anytime, a Honda dealer did a diff fluid change and maybe used the wrong stuff?

[geras003]

Thanks for info Dave. Honda dealer never touched the diff fluid - and I have been using Mobil 75x90 or LE stuff all the times I changed the fluid myself.. I will definitely try the LSD test once roads get wet again!:)


Jonathan may be onto something.
So long as there aren't any other similar pieces floating around in there, you may simply have diminished capacity in the Limited Slip and the car should drive fine without that piece. If it were me, I would get it resolved.
If you get a chance to drive it when the roads are snowy or icy, put one tire on the slippery part and one tire on a dry patch like where the tire tracks have cleaned off the street. Take off moderately briskly and see if you have adequate traction from the dry side. If the LSD is working OK, you should have fairly good traction. If it's not working up to spec, you'll just spin the slippery side like crazy and go nowhere.
If it is indeed the piece that Jonathan suspects, taking the diff apart won't show you much unless you take the LSD apart and that's something that should be left to an "expert".

PS. Do you know if at anytime, a Honda dealer did a diff fluid change and maybe used the wrong stuff?

[bimdub]

Jonathan?:think:

[repiv]

Jonathan?:think:

Sorry....... CARL! (I had Desmo on the brain. And I just read a post from Gomarlins3.)

[bimdub]

no worries....:poke:

[dlq04]

Sorry....... CARL! (I had Desmo on the brain. And I just read a post from Gomarlins3.)

Heck, you remembered "Woodruff" key, which I couldn't think of. :facepalm:

It appears 'washer tab' is the top vote getter.

[griffon]

I have 64K on the odometer..:( So Honda warranty is not an option especially given a fact of aftermarket clutch and no CDV...
Spitfire - thanks for the comment.. It doesn't quite look like that part but it is the only part which somewhat resembles what I found.. I guess I will have to take the damn thing apart. What will be the effect on driving habits of the car if it was indeed locking plate breaking off? :think:

Thanks again everyone!

Honda isn't going to take your clutch apart or know about the missing CDV. I'd take a shot and see what they may do for you. Perhaps a bit of goodwill. They have done things on S2000s that were out of warranty before.

The worst that can happen is they say no.

[griffon]

I'm just really surprized that that piece is in such good shape. That diff. fluid is really moving around and should have carried that piece into harm's way.

[dlq04]

I'm just really surprized that that piece is in such good shape. That diff. fluid is really moving around and should have carried that piece into harm's way.

Depends how effective the magnet was - appears it did the job.

[NeuterdSputniks]

Honda isn't going to take your clutch apart or know about the missing CDV. I'd take a shot and see what they may do for you. Perhaps a bit of goodwill. They have done things on S2000s that were out of warranty before.

The worst that can happen is they say no.
You'd be surprised...

I took my S to the Honda dealership when my diff blew. They called me up to inform me that they would not cover anything due to the aftermarket clutch (they had borescoped the clutch through the transmission casing weep hole).

[geras003]

Well... I changed the fluid today again after putting 1100 miles since last change when I found that mistery piece. Fluid came out VERY clean, as new - and there was nothing on the plug except VERY little amount of normal sludge...:think: It makes me really think where that piece acually came from! I guess I will keep on driving for now! I will update once I change the fluid again!
Thanks everyone for the help!