Synthetic Oil

[wong88]

I have always had my 2000 S2000 oil changed at the Honda Dealer, but now I'm thinking of using synthetic oil, which they don't carry. Especially for the Laguna Seca day coming up in June, it seems that Synthetic Oil would better protect the engine, although once used, I've heard that you can't go back to organic oil.

Who has had experience with this, especially if you run your car hard (reving often to 9000RPM!)

Thanks
Brian

[Greg Stevens]

Brian, it's generally considered that synthetics, like Mobil 1 or others, are more consistent and more capable of performing under high stress conditions, and this motor seems to punish its oil!

I have run Mobil 1 in each of the F20C's that I have had. On the first one, I changed the oil at 7000...sounds crazy, but that motor was a screamer. Then on the new one, I changed about 3500.

Yea, it's a little more expensive than some of the other choices out there, but IMO, synthetic is worse the extra performance. I don't know if it's true or not about going back to dyno oil, but my only question would be why would you want to? ;)

Mobil 1 can be had pretty cheaply at your local Sam's or Costco...6 quarts for about 20 bucks or so. Good investment, IMO, and I think others who run their cars hard (not that I know anything about that! ;) ) would agree with that opinion.

Oh, and make sure to have a fresh change of oil before Laguna Seca!

:D :love:

[Urmil]

Here's my take on it now:

On my Prelude, once I started modding it and driving it harder, I switched from dino Mobil oil to Mobil 1 Tri-Synth. I did all the normal maintenance and tune-ups. The first engine lasted me about 75K miles. At each oil change, the oil color had been a bit darker than what went it and was normally a 1/4 quart low.

I don't know how or to what extent the synthetic protected my engine to only last 75K miles, but I don't think it did much. After the new engine went it, the car was sold.

On the other hand, on the S2000, I did the original oil change at 6000 with regular dino Mobil oil of proper weight. Then after the next 3000 miles, I switched over to the Mobil 1 synthetic stuff....again, I noticed no more performance or increased gas mileage. At every oil change, I noted that the oil seemed to be a slightly bit burned, not bad looking in any light.

Then one day I had a f*ck up with an oil filter that failed on me and I lost a good amount of oil. I could not find any Mobil 1 synthetic on hand at any store at the time, and was thought that it was a big no-no to mix synthetic brands.

After a good discussion from Chris Delena and S2Ki member, Prolene, I ws confident enough to just add some regular dino oil to the synthetic until I was able to get a full oil change done.

I ran the car about 200 miles with "mix"....the engine seemed more "rattly", but more powerful as well. The next oil change was a full flush and proper weight of regular Mobil dino oil. Again after some miles, the engine seemed even more "rattly", but even more powerful.

Since then I have only used regular dino oil and have noticed about 10 more miles on the trip odometer every fuel fill.

Greg's even made mention to the effect that he thinks my motor is a strong one, compared to others.

BTW, Greg...do you mind if I borrow your ECU for a day or two near the end of this week?

[wong88]

Urmil and Greg
Thanks for your prompt reply. I've not used synthetic, but can imagine that this engine is tougher on oil than most with the high rev and high HP/L.
Based on what I've heard, plus the ability to go back to dino (as Greg says why would I need to) - the only reason would be in a pinch when synth was not availble. I had not heard that you shouldn't switch brands. If this is even possibly a concern, then I should probably use the most widely available synth oil (Mobile 1?)
Thanks
Brian

[Urmil]

Actually if I had to answer with my opinion, Mobil1 seems to be the most popular synthetic, but not the most available.

The one I commonly see on the shelves is the Penzoil and Castrol brands of synthetic. I've actually heard a lot of good things about the Castrol Syntec synthetic.

You may want to do a web search for the reasons that it is or isn't OK to combine brands of synthetic. To my knowledge, synthetic means different things to different manufacturers, as such, the different synthetic products may be made up of very different things.

Again, I'm not too sure about it, but do a search, or ask chris Delena...he's a wealth of knowledge.

[WestSideBilly]

Based on some testing a friend did (for a large racing program), the Castrol Syntec was actually better than Mobil One. Penzoil's synthetic was crap, though.

I recall seeing that the newest Mobil One lost one of its key ingrediants (molybdenum?), so it may not be as good as it was only recently. That said, Mobil One (or synthetics in general) is still vastly superior to dino oil in how well it protects your engine - and well worth the premium price.

[tony]

Do not forget one of the original synthetics Amsoil or another good one is Redline and they have one that is called Purple something?? All have good comments from Racers:) :) :) :)

[joe_s2k]

Originally posted by tony
..one that is called Purple something?? ..

That would be Royal Puple. http://www.synerlec.com Their product line is very similar to Redline's.

[desmo4]

I have been running Redline since it reached the 10k mark. I noticed that after 12000 miles with the filter changed every 3000 the oil looks like it just came out of a new bottle. Since 25k I have added 10% MoS2 additive which due to the reduced friction causes a slightly slower warm up from a cold start and initialy caused a little higher oil consumtion. Now at 50k it doesn't use any oil. One of these days I will check the compression to see if the normal moly effect has occurred. Which is very uniform and slight higher compression.

Jonathan

[Yellow Streak]

I run either Mobil1 or Amsoil. Does anybody that runs full road courses run any heavier of an oil when racing in the summer? I am coming up on my first hot weather races and was wondering if I should go a little thicker than 10w30.

-YS

[monkeymaker]

I've run full road courses on really hot days (90 - 110*F) a half dozen times and have had no problem at all with my stock motor oil. My car just dyno'd at 202 (only engine mod is a CAI,) after all that "abuse". :) I changed the oil at 3750 and 7500 miles, and now I have just over 10K and am about to swap it out again before my next track day on April 18th.

Having been convinced of the potential for increased protection with sythetic, I'm going to go with Mobil 1 Super-syn 10W30. I see no need to go to a heavier oil even during the hot summer days at Thunderhill, Buttonwillow, etc.

[Yellow Streak]

Originally posted by monkeymaker
I've run full road courses on really hot days (90 - 110*F) a half dozen times and have had no problem at all with my stock motor oil. My car just dyno'd at 202 (only engine mod is a CAI,) after all that "abuse". :) I changed the oil at 3750 and 7500 miles, and now I have just over 10K and am about to swap it out again before my next track day on April 18th.

Having been convinced of the potential for increased protection with sythetic, I'm going to go with Mobil 1 Super-syn 10W30. I see no need to go to a heavier oil even during the hot summer days at Thunderhill, Buttonwillow, etc.

Excellent. I'll stick with synthetic 10w30.

-YS

[AP1 Turbo]

Don't be such a puddin YS... go with the 15W50 like the big boys! :lahim:
J/K
-APT

[desmo4]

Since the clearances in the F20 are so tight I have been told by some racer types and Honda to stick with 10w30 for CA temperatures or 5w30 for colder climates.

Jonathan

[Yellow Streak]

Originally posted by AP1 Turbo
Don't be such a puddin YS... go with the 15W50 like the big boys! :lahim:
J/K
-APT

I thought I could hide over here on S2KCA....and, APT, you know I'm a puddin :D

-YS

[leon]

Hi, kids,
Does anyone have any input on changing differential and gearbox oil to synthetic? My local auto parts store stocks the Mobil1 product but I wouldn't be put off by sending away for some Amsoil. Does the torsen like synthetic oil? What about ATF in the Gearbox? I don't have the Manual in front of me....i may add to the post later, but I remember something different about the gearbox and an OK to run motor oil in an emergency. Somebody, please, help straighten this out! Don't most manual trannies run 90wt or more?

[meat]

I just had my tranny and diff fluids swapped out while up at King Motorsports. While they are a Redline dealer they recommended sticking with the Honda tranny lube. We did switch the diff to Redline gear oil (75W/90 I think).

[desmo4]

I have been running Redline in the diff for 40k miles no issues. I ran it in the trans until the clutch was changed at about 25k when the dealer had to refill it.

Jonathan

[leon]

Thanks mucho for oil help.....the checks in the mail...........................

[leon]

I have been doing some extensive reading on 'synthetic' oil. The main question posed was 'just what is synthetic oil'? Turns out to be a good question. Apparently there are several oils which qualify as synthetic. I no longer consider Mobil1 in the synthetic catagory. Most American 'synthetics' from the 'majors' are really HIGHLY refined dino stuff, which is called a 'group III oil'. Other catagories of oil are 'group IV and Group V'. These are literally synthesized from LIGHTER molecules, rather than a crack of heavier molecules. I won't go into the chemistry that I really don't understand, but the point is to become more informed. I will find the link again and post it.

[Bieg]

Originally posted by leon
I have been doing some extensive reading on 'synthetic' oil. The main question posed was 'just what is synthetic oil'? Turns out to be a good question. Apparently there are several oils which qualify as synthetic. I no longer consider Mobil1 in the synthetic catagory. Most American 'synthetics' from the 'majors' are really HIGHLY refined dino stuff, which is called a 'group III oil'. Other catagories of oil are 'group IV and Group V'. These are literally synthesized from LIGHTER molecules, rather than a crack of heavier molecules. I won't go into the chemistry that I really don't understand, but the point is to become more informed. I will find the link again and post it.

Actually Mobil 1 is a true synthetic while many others are modified Dino oils. Mobil sued with regard to manufacturers claiming the modified dino oil as "true synthetics" but lost the case. I believe that the ruling was that no matter what the source molecule altering it's structure would make it synthetic so they could claim they were synthetic. So to make a long story short the definition of synthetic has been loosened and these new types now qualify where once they did not.

I use Mobil 1 and I bring it to my Dealer so they can change it and install a Honda filter. This way if I have a filter failure Honda is responsible and it will be covered.

Perhaps the best benefit of synthetic oil is how great it flows at cold temps. Anyone with an oil pressure guage can verify how much sooner you achieve good oil pressure during cold start conditions. As this is where your engine suffers most of it's wear this benefit is significant.

[leon]

FROM THE AMSOIL SITE.......I believe this refers to the ruling in question...................


The primary downside to the NAD ruling and any resulting replacement of PAOs with VHVIs, says Svoboda, “is that North American PCMO consumers will not be getting the higher quality performance level offered by the PAO. Despite claims of equivalent performance, PAO continues to maintain its superior performance over Group IIIs under extreme operating conditions, particularly with regard to low-temperature performance and high-temperature oxidative stability.”



I got a little ahead of myself. Many oil manufacturers/refiners are apparently going to group III oils, and dropping the superior PAO (polyalphaolifins) from there formulations
the entire article can be found at www.1st-in-synthetics.com/newsletter_1000.htm This, while an Amsoil site, is good stuff......MOdBIL1 continues, for the time being at least to be formulated with PAO's.............
But the question of whether group III oils are 'synthetic' is valid. I KNOW it is a fine point to the edge of who cares? but group III starts with petrochems and are highly modified. PAO's start with something else.........and the Esters are even weirder.
I will continue to search for the original posting which started me down this trail. A chemist tosses his nickel in and makes sense from a confusing subject..................

[leon]

This link will take nearly an hour to read. It gets a little hostile at times, but continue, overall it is worth it. Good luck with the chemistry part....................




www.oilanalysis.com/message_boards/message_details_by_list.asp?foldername=Synthetic+O il&messagenumber=1%20

[fastoldman]

Two quick key points:
1. Keep in mind the fear of adding Dino oils to Synthetics is easily answered by the Manufacturers ---- you can buy a Synthetic Blended version of almost every major oil brand at Walmart, Autozone, etc.
2. Stay with the lower weight Synthetic for the track, as this is an ancient race secret -- thinner oil easier to push through the motor and hence the lower viscosity increases hp. Heck, Royal Purple used to flat out tell folks to run lower weight for more hp, like they had figured it out and no one else knew.


Buy your synthetic at Walmart , Costco, etc. and just take it in to the garage, dealership, etc. for a inexpensive change.

Check out the Valvoline site, as they have a Valvoline Cup Series for Racers, and now have racing synthetics available at NAPA stores!!

[desmo4]

I have been running Redline gear oil in the diff since 3000 miles. I have 54000 on it with no issues

Jonathan

[stingerbtry]

Ok so I know enough about synthetic oil to get my but what about the filter? I know many people use the stock Honda filter but I read somewhere that it was made by Fram. If this is the case then I will be switching next oil change as my brother has been a mechanic for many many years and always says that everytime a car comes in with issues concerning oil that it is almost always a car with a fram filter. He said to stay away from them at all costs. I have been using purolator PureOne filters on all of my other cars except the S so far. Mine only has 9,500 miles on it right now and I figure I will go 2 more changes with dino using Honda stuff before I switch to Amsoil. I love the Amsoil filters but they are hard to find around here from what I have seen. I used to use them in my mustangs back in the day but since switching to mainll japanese vehicles I have yet to find one that works. Anyway, all I am really asking is if anyone knows who makes the Honda filter. The one that the dealership keeps using is the one that seems to fit almost any Honda even though I heard that there is now a special S2000 only filter. I just don't want to have issues with a crappy filter down the road. Thanks.

[Sideways]

Check out


www.bobistheoilguy.com/ ;)

[leon]

Just had the oil changed at about 7000 miles. The Dealer said there was an oil filter modification out to reduce oil consumption! Two questions......
1st. How can an oil filter influence oil consumption, besides just leaking
2nd. Does Mobil1 make a filter to fit this application?
...............................leo................ ..

[valentine]

I'm just a little ole grandma who drives like the "Little Ole Lady from Pasadena" (altho I'm in Virginia), but . . . my husband is a mechanical engineer and drives like C R A Z Y -- he totally believes in using Mobile 1 synthetic and that is what I run in my S2k. He spends a great deal of time studying the "physics of car racing" and believes the scientific evidence demonstrates the benefits of running the synthetic oil. I, on the other hand, think its good because darn it, I'm tired of using all our natural resources -- I bet I'll get dissed for that one, oh well, I'm a big girl -- I can take it. (Also, please bear in mind, I'm a grandmother, a mother and a blonde -- so -- it'll just zoom over my airhead anyway). AND . .... bear in mind, too -- I just successfully completed my driver's exam in order to keep my driver's license after THREE speeding tickets -- those darn popo -- they'd give their own mothers speeding tickets.:waa: :waa: :waa:

[Rowland]

Originally posted by valentine
I'm just a little ole grandma who drives like the "Little Ole Lady from Pasadena" (altho I'm in Virginia), but . . . my husband is a mechanical engineer and drives like C R A Z Y -- he totally believes in using Mobile 1 synthetic and that is what I run in my S2k. He spends a great deal of time studying the "physics of car racing" and believes the scientific evidence demonstrates the benefits of running the synthetic oil. I, on the other hand, think its good because darn it, I'm tired of using all our natural resources -- I bet I'll get dissed for that one, oh well, I'm a big girl -- I can take it. (Also, please bear in mind, I'm a grandmother, a mother and a blonde -- so -- it'll just zoom over my airhead anyway). AND . .... bear in mind, too -- I just successfully completed my driver's exam in order to keep my driver's license after THREE speeding tickets -- those darn popo -- they'd give their own mothers speeding tickets.:waa: :waa: :waa:


:lol4:

Thank you Val for a good laugh. I really enjoyed that post.

:lol4: :brew: :lol4:

[DavidNJ]

I can really only speak from oval track racing experience. So here goes.

1. Virtually everyone, and at the pro level everyone, runs synthetic.

2. Advantages are performance, protection during overheating, and protection from oil system failure (usually a dry sump belt).

3. People are picky about their brands. My engine builder prefers Torco. Some like Royal Purple. Some Mobil 1. I know some people runs Amsoil. All are careful to use the racing blends (Most have both). All run straight synthetic.

4. These engines are torn down at least once per year. Engine builders report next to no wear.

5. Some had a concern using syntheic oil during ring break-in. My engine builder was among. them. A year ago we tried it for break in. The rings were fine. In fact my car is a rocket down the straights (especially for a Chevy). No working on the corner entry (shocks, springs, geometry).

[crazy's S2K]

Sybthetic oil is good to use in low mile cars. However, when you start getting into higher miles (80,000+) the gaskets are thinner and the sythetic will leak out easier. Unless of course you have them replaced. Castrol makes some of the best oil, especially since these are small engine, high-revving cars. I just got my S2K a couple of days ago and plan to use synthetic oil myself.

[S2000 Driver]

http://store4.yimg.com/I/rodi_1779_1601600

Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30 Oil for High Performance Engines is now available.

Click here for details! (http://www.s2kca.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2157&perpage=15&pagenumber=2)

:worship:

:thumbsup:

[Caleb23Burns]

I work for a Honda dealership here in Southern Oregon. I have worked with Honda most of my adult life. I personally run Mobil 1 10w30. I also add a quart of the Lucas synthetic oil stabilizer to each oil change. I haven't noticed any decrease in oil consumption, but have noticed a increase in fuel mileage, and a decrease in engine noise. I chose mobil 1 because Honda Oil is made by Mobil. I figure that if Honda trusts Mobil, then I should as well.

About the Honda filters. They did update the old style that was made in Japan to an american vender known as Fram for all other vehicles excluding the S2000. Honda of Japan is still the vendor for these as far as I know. The S2000 is valved different for the oil pressure the motor demands. This filter will also fit most other Hondas, but by application it is the wrong filter. So, Yes most of the Honda filters are currently made by Fram, but the S2000 one isn't. But, personally I wouldn't wory about it, if something happens due to a Honda filter problem, it would be covered under warranty. I figure that Honda is built on reliability, I don't think that they would alloy a product to be sold under there name that could jepardise all that they have built in the consumer market.

This is just my two cents worth though.

Kind of a funny analigy from a vendor that we have at Honda about Synthetic oil.

"What's the difference between adding dirt to a $5.00 bottle of water or a bottle of water that is only $0.25? One, costs $5.00." His point was, reguardless of if you run synthetic oil or dino oil, its going to get dirty. One just costs more to replace.

I personally think that the synthetic will protect the engine better than standard dino oil, so I will pay $5.00 for a bottle of water if it makes me live longer. :thumbsup:

[GChambers]

I am fairly skeptical when it comes to product and advertising claims. I am definitely not an easy sale.

I just did an oil change in my 90 Miata with about 114,000 miles on the clock. For the last six months or so, the car had just not been running that smoothly. It felt kinda loose and ratty. Also, it had developed quite a clicking noise on one or more of the lifters. This oil change I got a new OEM oil filter and used Mobile 1 that I use in the S2000. The difference in the way car car runs is night and day. I do not know if mileage has increased(I seriously doubt that it has) or if the car makes more power but it sure as hell runs worlds better than it did before the oil change, the lifter click is gone and the engine feels like it runs MUCH more smoothly than ever before.

I am sold.

[OkyS2k]

I am a big believer in the synthetic ever since I had the 60,000 mile check up on my 94 prelude seven years ago. The mechanic came back to get me to show me my cam cover and so I could see my engine partly exposed. He showed me a couple of bearings in the cam works that would normally show some wear at that stage of engine life. No wear was apparent and the cam cover was clean and shiny as was the exposed engine parts. I have used either 0/30 or 5/30 Mobile 1 in my 2000 S since the first oil change. I only change my oil every year now due to my annual mileage and my performance and mileage are as good as anyone I have read or met. I am totally sold on the quality and performance of Mobile 1 on both of my cars. It wasn't made the OEM choice for Porche and some other performance brands for nothing.

[dieselpilot1969]

I thought the manual say's to use 5w 40 for synthetic?

[tstiles]

Most of the synthetic oils are going to dyno more HP than the dino oils. In SRF & SM you will see 1 - 2 HP . Trust me , Everybody who is serious about running up front is running synthetic.

The reliability issue is more difficult to validate , But try this one . We took a team to Longest Night 24 about 96. It was the last SCCA race for the renault , our motor showed good leakdown numbers so we did not worry about it..... A few hours into the race we noticed that we were burning some oil .... No big deal , we had about 6 qts on the trailer .... By midnight I think we bought every qt of Mobil 1 within 20 miles of Moroso .... We could run an hour on fuel ..... By the end of the race we were adding 5 gallons of fuel and 2 qts of oil @ every stop...... By the end of 24 hrs we added 25 quarts..... That little Renault just kept going and going...... The moral to the story , I don't know if the Mobil 1 helped or hurt , but the motor was hurt and it ran strong for 24 hrs.

[NotSteve]

According to their website, Mobil has discontinued Mobil 1 0W-30 Racing Oil.

[sparcv9]

Interesting thread, especially with all of the voodooisms surrounding "my" oil.

First and foremost, no matter what oil you put in your engine, your arse ain't gonna tell an iota of difference from any other oil you may put in your engine. And since no two tankfuls of gas are going to be consumed in an identical manner, this also applies to the mileage one gets with one oil or another. Perhaps, just perhaps, over an extended period of time, YOU may be able to discern mpg differences between different oils within the adjacent classes.

For an interesting read on the oils you put into your S2000, take a look here:

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

Even though the focus is for motorcycles, you can draw reasonable conclusions for your S2000. Both have high perf engines.

For me, for the first 1000 miles of break-in, I use the manufacturer's oil they installed at the factory. Around 1000 miles, its always Mobil 1 (lighter weights in winter time, like 0w-30, and heavier weights during summer, like 0w-40) to the 2500 mile mark, then at 5000 miles, another oil change and thereafter, every 5000 miles I change the oil. I do change the oil filter every 2500 miles until around 25K miles, then the oil filter change follows the oil change pattern.

I did this routine on my '86 Nissan KC PU with a 2.4 litre 4 cylinder... When I sold it a year or so ago, with 189,000 miles on it, I was sad to let it go... between oil changes, nary a bit oil consumed, or rather, the dipstick mark dropped less than a tenth down the stick between changes. Oil drips, non-existent.

I expect the same with the S2000.

And adding additives to your oil is a waste of $$$.

Well, interesting thread... Its no wonder the boutique motor oil vendors are still in business.

sparcv9

[hal1633]

I purchased a MY04 S2000 from a Honda dealer last week and the oil change sticker on the winshield said 5W20, is that ok?

[SUBMARINER-SS24]

I always use pure virgin olive oil for my green salad, always come out perfect!! For my S2K, I use Amsoil Signature 0x30W

[thereur]

Lots of 30W oils shear down to 20W while in the car. Car should be fine. That said, the recommendation in your manual is 10W30 (5W40 under some conditions). Use the right oil going forward. Anything (0,5 or 10)W(30 or 40) should be fine. I'd feel better changing out the oil personally (not completely rational). Unless you have very clear maint records, I'd also change out the diff and trans. Also, probably good idea to change out the brake fluid. Enjoy the car! Congrats!

[repiv]

I purchased a MY04 S2000 from a Honda dealer last week and the oil change sticker on the winshield said 5W20, is that ok?
It's "probably" OK, until you begin to drive the car in the way that it was intended to be driven ---- high rpm, heavy cornering, track use or extended stop and go traffic, high heat conditions extended highway conditions. If you just "putt putt" around and drive it like most people drive Fits, Civics, Corollas, then it'll be "OK". Note that I said "OK", not "fine".
Personally, I'd get that stuff out at the earliest opportunity and NEVER go back to that dealer again for anything short of a free coffee in the waiting room.

[hal1633]

Honda 10W30 or Mobil1 10W30?

[repiv]

Honda 10W30 or Mobil1 10W30?
This is your choice. Many use Mobil 1. Some report that they burn more oil using M1, but I think these are rare. You can't go wrong with any brand name oil (synthetic or not) so long as you go by the recommended API rating and viscosity.
Be it known that once upon a time, Honda 10W30 that they put into S2000s used to be Mobil Drive Clean (non-synthetic). I don't know who makes if for Honda now.