CEL O2 Sensor

[omniruss]

I stopped by Advanced Auto Parts yesterday to read my engine code, got P0137 - forward O2 sensor I believe. I have just over 28k miles on my car - O2 sensors should last longer than that, shouldn't they? They quoted me $382 for a new one :yikes: so I cleared the code and went home.

I drove into work today and CEL did not come on, still keeping my fingers crossed. About a year ago I got P1457 (EVAP canister) which I cleared and it never came back. So now I'm wondering if P0137 will follow a similar path. Any thoughts?

Anyway the universal O2 sensors were only $50 - has anyone used these, and what do you think of them?




-- many thanks as always.

[repiv]

This is the code for the "Secondary O2 Sensor - Circuit Low Voltage". This is the one in your cat, so thankfully, it's not the primary one in your header, which the ECU needs to run the engine. The one in the cat is more to tell the ECU about the cat's function and uses that signal for more long term engine operations.
These things should last the life of the car unless it's been damaged in some way. Have you done anything in or around the cat converter? Check the wiring harness to make sure it's connected and check the wiring around the harness to make sure nothing has gotten worn through or burned through.
The diagnosis for this involves taking a bunch of voltage measurements, but the first thing is the reset the ECU. Depending on what voltages you get at the connector, you either trace and fix the short in the circuit, which could involve the wiring, the harness or the sensor itself. Worst case scenario involves replacing the ECU with a known good one. Of course, if there's something wrong with the cat itself, this would throw a code too. Hopefully, the CEL won't come back with this code but if it does, post back and I'll lay out the whole diagnostics for you.
The EVAP cannister code most likely involve a momentary issue with the purge valve and may have been due to a small, temporary leak in the system. You may luck out and never see either code again.

[omniruss]

Have you done anything in or around the cat converter? Check the wiring harness to make sure it's connected and check the wiring around the harness to make sure nothing has gotten worn through or burned through.

The last I was in that area was July (I think) of last year when I removed the exhaust to remove my differential. I haven't yet jacked up the car for visual inspsection. I went out for lunch today, and P0137 just rang up again. Guess I can't ignore this one.

[Looter]

...EVAP canister puked on me too...Last season, late Fall, I was on the way to the Brown County meet, in the Indy area.....Good 'ol "cel" came on.....Just happens that I am less than a mile from my dealership...They checked and cleared the 1457 code. Said it was the EVAP canister...said it would be alright to drive the car...may screw up the mileage a bit, but I didn't care about that....They said they would order me a new one and call when it came in....Well....they never called, and I drove it for more than 500 miles...till the "cel" came back on....Took it back to the dealership and asked if the canister ever came in ????? That they never called me ???? Well of course it did...They put it on at once, no questions asked...My car is an '03, with 35K miles on it....They said..."NO-CHARGE" warranty work :eek: OMG....That made my day !!!!

[repiv]

The last I was in that area was July (I think) of last year when I removed the exhaust to remove my differential. I haven't yet jacked up the car for visual inspsection. I went out for lunch today, and P0137 just rang up again. Guess I can't ignore this one.

When you get around to doing the inspection, check both the O2 sensor and the cat itself. A local S2000 owner has just reported that his cat somehow came apart on the inside and the loose material damaged the sensor. Now he has to replace both.

[omniruss]

Here's the sensor, shot from opposite directions:

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr41/omniruss/DSC05710.jpg


http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr41/omniruss/DSC05711.jpg


Does it look like a little piece has broken off from the filament?

[repiv]

That sensor is completely broken. You should not be able to see that white part at all. It should all be encased within a cylindrical shroud with tiny little holes drilled all around it. It looks something like the one depicted in the following link:

http://oxygensensors.com/showpicture.php?&sensor=234-4601&pkey=1363104

I'll bet the shroud got smashed and is inside your cat. You might want to inspect the sensor hole in the cat to see if the cat is also falling apart inside.

[omniruss]

You might want to inspect the sensor hole in the cat to see if the cat is also falling apart inside.
Ok, that's a pretty small hole, what am I looking for? Take the whole cat off?

[repiv]

I think it would be best to remove the cat entirely so you can give it a shake. You'll probably hear it rattling with pieces of debris loose inside. You may even shake a few bits and pieces out the hole. Shine a light into the hole and see how much of the cat elements have disintegrated. The elements are disc shaped the same diameter as the cat. Each element is about 1/2 to 1 inch thick and is like tiny honeycomb design. There are a set upstream of the sensor hole and a set of discs downstream of the sensor hole. Right where the hole is, there is a larger chamber between the two adjacent discs. When you have the cat off, look down either end of it and you will see what one of these discs look like. I'll bet one or more of the discs upstream of the sensor has come apart. If this is the case, you should consider replacing it.
Might be time for a high flow cat. S2Kmugen is holding a group buy on the Berk one at the moment. It's a lot cheaper than the OEM one.

I just found a picture of one of our O2 sensors. This is the one in the header but the one in the cat looks the same:

http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/42103/2528444840025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2528444840025981935ogKdfc)

[bimdub]

28K miles? what year? its probably Warranty Issue no legitimate exhaust shop will touch it.


Catalytic Converter Laws

Rules for Replacing Converters
In 1986, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency issued new guidelines for the construction, efficiency and installation of aftermarket catalytic converters. All CleanAir converters listed in this catalog have been designed, tested and manufactured to meet this policy.

In addition, CleanAir converter listed in this catalog is appropriate for use under the current requirements of the California Air Resources Board (C.A.R.B.).
E.P.A. guidelines state that replacement converters may be installed only in the following situations:

1. The vehicle is missing a converter
2. A state or local inspection program has determined that the existing converter needs replacement
3. Vehicles manufactured prior to 1996 must have more than 50,000 miles, and a legitimate need for replacement must be established and documented
4. In cases of OBD Il-equipped vehicles (1996 and later), the O.E. manufacturer's 8-year/80,000-mile warranty must have expired and a legitimate need for replacement must be established and documented.
Please note that Federal law prohibits removal or replacement of a properly functioning O.E. converter.

When replacement of the converter is appropriate (as outlined above), the E.P.A. further requires that:

1. It be installed in the same location as the original
2. It be the same type as the original (i.e., two-way, three-way, three-way plus air/three-way plus oxidation)
3. It be the proper model for the vehicle application as determined and specified by the manufacturer
4. It be properly connected to any existing air injection components on the vehicle
5. It be installed with any other required converter for a particular application
6. It be accompanied by a warranty information card to be completed by the installer.

[repiv]

Bimdub has a very good point, however, with a supercharger clamped to the engine, I fear that even the emissions warranty may be void. It could be argued that the cat and consequently, the O2 sensor, was destroyed as a result of the increased exhaust volume, exhaust temp and the typical richness of a supercharged engine.

[omniruss]

Bimdub has a very good point, however, with a supercharger clamped to the engine, I fear that even the emissions warranty may be void. It could be argued that the cat and consequently, the O2 sensor, was destroyed as a result of the increased exhaust volume, exhaust temp and the typical richness of a supercharged engine.

I assumed absolutely no warranty coverage on anything as soon as I installed supercharger. I'll remove the cat when I get home from work, and assuming it's toast, will be looking into group buy that you mentioned.

Does forced injection typically kill the cat, or do people realize this and get high-flow cat anyway?

[repiv]

Does forced injection typically kill the cat, or do people realize this and get high-flow cat anyway?

It shouldn't, but it can depend on how you drive the car and just how rich the A/F is under WOT. As you know, our cars tend to run stoich (~14.7) in NA form, but most FI applications will drop that A/F down to as much as 11.0 (or less) under WOT (max boost) and load. I'm at about 12.0 to 12.5 at the richest and I'm still on my original cat and O2 sensor, but I've got the Berk hi-flow on the way from the group buy. I've known FI guys with their original cats for many years and 100K miles. Usually, the engine lets go before the cat does. Driving style can have a lot to do with it. If you're "on it" a lot, then you are putting a lot of exhaust volume and pressure through the cat, not to mention higher heat. Eventually, this will "age" the cat prematurely. When cats age, they either clog up or the discs break apart.

[omniruss]

Driving style can have a lot to do with it. If you're "on it" a lot, then you are putting a lot of exhaust volume and pressure through the cat, not to mention higher heat. Eventually, this will "age" the cat prematurely. When cats age, they either clog up or the discs break apart.

Makes sense... I'm WOT very often anywhere from 5k rpm to redline until the next gear and over again.

For the record...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio

[repiv]

For the record...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio
In our case (FI), we have to contend with boosted (compressed) combustion volume, resulting is an artificially produced temperature rise above the ordinary "rich" mixture. In order for us to get the output increase that we do, the BTUs generated is far more than say, a NA engine that has an A/F of what we're running. Although we don't normally monitor exhaust gas temps like the turbo guys do, it is likely that our supercharged EGTs are much higher than normal.

[omniruss]

The elements are disc shaped the same diameter as the cat. Each element is about 1/2 to 1 inch thick and is like tiny honeycomb design. There are a set upstream of the sensor hole and a set of discs downstream of the sensor hole. Right where the hole is, there is a larger chamber between the two adjacent discs. When you have the cat off, look down either end of it and you will see what one of these discs look like. I'll bet one or more of the discs upstream of the sensor has come apart. If this is the case, you should consider replacing it.


Right you are. The honeycombs haven't "come apart" but they aren't quite attached either. You can see where the sensor has made a home for itself:
http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr41/omniruss/DSC05715.jpg

The honeycomb on the forward end of the cat has about 1 1/2 inches of back-and-forth play:
http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr41/omniruss/DSC05713-1.jpg

The rear looks ok, but I sheared off one of the bolts anyway :loser:
http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr41/omniruss/DSC05714.jpg

Time for an upgrade. :martini2: S2Kmugen says he has some Burk high-flow cats left, so I'll be ordering one asap.

I emailed hardtopguy for a new sensor because I cannot find one on his site. Any recommendations?

[repiv]

I emailed hardtopguy for a new sensor because I cannot find one on his site. Any recommendations?
It looks like the front discs have shifted and the one just in front of the sensor rammed into the tip of the sensor. The rear discs don't get the full force of the exhaust so they stayed put. None of them should move at all.
HTguy apparently has taken a new job as a parts guy at a Honda dealer. He's still running Hardtopguy.com but he may be quite busy with his new responsibilities and may not reply to your email. You may have better luck phoning him (perhaps during his off time at the dealership). Or try one of the online Honda parts places, like ..............................................

http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=S2000 ($255.00 + shipping)

There are other places that you can find by Google.

[s2kmugen]

Russ! Packaged and slip ready to go! UPS will pick it up tomorrow! i'll pm you the tracking #

[omniruss]

http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=S2000 ($255.00 + shipping)

There are other places that you can find by Google.

Yes I've heard of google :tounge2: Thought maybe you knew of a quick cheap place. All kidding aside, I get really tired of shelling out $$$$ for these damn O2 sensors (other vehicles alike.)

Do you know if the Burk comes with this new gasket, and if not, do you think I should get a new one?
http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr41/omniruss/DSC05720.jpg

[omniruss]

Russ! Packaged and slip ready to go! UPS will pick it up tomorrow! i'll pm you the tracking #

Great!

[repiv]

Yes I've heard of google :tounge2: Thought maybe you knew of a quick cheap place. All kidding aside, I get really tired of shelling out $$$$ for these damn O2 sensors (other vehicles alike.)

Do you know if the Burk comes with this new gasket, and if not, do you think I should get a new one?
No, I live in Canada. Nothing for the car is cheap here. Even I buy from HTguy.

That donut gasket is shot. You should get a new one from the dealer. They don't cost much ($25.00). You might want to phone a few of the dealers near you to see if any have the sensor and for how much. No, the Berk cat doesn't have that donut. Here's a picture with that donut. You might be able pull off the part number from the package:

http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/41805/2786813670025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2786813670025981935QfhzAg)

[omniruss]

No, I live in Canada. Nothing for the car is cheap here. Even I buy from HTguy.


Fair enough. Here's my default cheap OEM site. I can't find anything cheaper, but they certainly impress me.... 194.39 USD for my O2 sensor, 20.22 for donut gasket!
http://www.hondapartscheap.com

So everything is on order, now all I have to do is wait.

One last question: the honeycomb disks were either too restrictive or not fastened securely enough to withstand boost, or both. If OEM is too restrictive, what kind of hp gains might I expect? Yes yes, the cliche question, and the S2000 cliche answer is "none" or "negligible," right?

[repiv]

One last question: the honeycomb disks were either too restrictive or not fastened securely enough to withstand boost, or both. If OEM is too restrictive, what kind of hp gains might I expect? Yes yes, the cliche question, and the S2000 cliche answer is "none" or "negligible," right?

The OEM cat is already a high flow cat. It's just that in your case, the richness of your A/F combined with your driving style may have paritally clogged it prematurely. If you were to put in a new OEM cat at this point, I would guess that you would get back some of the power you lost from the old cat. The Berk is supposed to be 43% better than the OEM cat:

http://www.berktechnology.com/shop/product.asp?strParents=93&CAT_ID=100&P_ID=425

How this translates to increased power is anyone's guess. My guess would be that you lost about 10% with the old cat, so you'd get that back and the Berk might give you another 5%. These are only a personal guess and I'm sure there are plenty of armchair dyno boys who can argue this. Depending on just how damaged your old cat was, you may or may not feel any gains at all. Only a dyno will tell the tale. For me, I'm not expecting miracles when I put my Berk on. My car is running really well at the moment. It's just that the group buy was so tempting, a friend here decided we should both get one, so I bought two. He has a NA CR.

[RacingEmotions]

i personally woulda went ahead and got a test pipe and CEL fix since it would b a bit cheaper but thats just me. seems like repiv got you all taken care of

[bimdub]

i personally woulda went ahead and got a test pipe and CEL fix since it would b a bit cheaper but thats just me. seems like repiv got you all taken care of

some of us on the forum are concerned about the environment, even if only a small amount, others might be concerned about the law?

[omniruss]

some of us on the forum are concerned about the environment, even if only a small amount, others might be concerned about the law?

Yes and yes. New York State inspection law requires visual inspection of the catalytic converter. Any legitimate shop would fail the emissions test if a test pipe were in place of the cat. Interestingly enough, the New York City Metro Area has an even more stringent test where the vehicle's exhaust is directly tested for the amount of hydrocarbons, oxides of nitrogen, and carbon monoxide pollutants. This inspection also includes a simulated driving condition test on a dynamometer. Not sure if s/c would pass that test. Thankfully I live in Central New York where I can enjoy a more "natural" environment! ;)

[bimdub]

Yes and yes. New York State inspection law requires visual inspection of the catalytic converter. Any legitimate shop would fail the emissions test if a test pipe were in place of the cat. Interestingly enough, the New York City Metro Area has an even more stringent test where the vehicle's exhaust is directly tested for the amount of hydrocarbons, oxides of nitrogen, and carbon monoxide pollutants. This inspection also includes a simulated driving condition test on a dynamometer. Not sure if s/c would pass that test. Thankfully I live in Central New York where I can enjoy a more "natural" environment! ;)


I would love to see a four gas of a supercharged engine.....I imagine the cat would keep it clean enough....of course that is before it overworked itself to death....

[omniruss]

I just installed and test drove my new 70mm Berk cat. First impression is it's a lot louder. Got a few horseys back, considering my old cat was broken.

Thanks John (s2kmugen.) I'm very happy!

And thanks for all the help Dave. :thumbup:

[omniruss]

What do you think about this ... my new cat seems to make a high-pitched vibration as if the "honeycomb" disks might be shaking around, while WOT around 4-5k rpm. It's prominent in gears 1 and 2, after that, road noise dominates. Higher rpms and engine noise dominates (vtec.)

Is this typical? Something I should take care of?

[repiv]

What do you think about this ... my new cat seems to make a high-pitched vibration as if the "honeycomb" disks might be shaking around, while WOT around 4-5k rpm. It's prominent in gears 1 and 2, after that, road noise dominates. Higher rpms and engine noise dominates (vtec.)

Is this typical? Something I should take care of?

I can't say if it's typical. Mine is still being delivered by Ulrich, who is on the National Parks cruise and on his way to meet with me. Best to ask someone in that group buy thread if they've noticed this sound. Offhand, I'd say it isn't normal. You might want to go under and check to see if the cat is really close to the heat shield. I know that the whole exhaust can have considerable movement at certain rpm and under certain loads. The cat might just be a different enough shape on your car that it could make contact with the heat shield. Wouldn't hurt to check along the exhaust piping as well. The way the new cat bolts on could possibly alter the positioning of the rest of the exhaust enough to make a part of it touch something, too.

[Jerome]

Dave, I am about to get a new Berk cat for my supercharged '02 S (has a stock exhaust system). I suppose that you have had time to install your Berk cat by now. My question is, did you notice an increase in exhaust noise level over when your S had the stock cat? An expected big increase in exhaust noise will influnce me to cancel the order.

jmoore2k
NW Arkansas

[repiv]

Dave, I am about to get a new Berk cat for my supercharged '02 S (has a stock exhaust system). I suppose that you have had time to install your Berk cat by now. My question is, did you notice an increase in exhaust noise level over when your S had the stock cat? An expected big increase in exhaust noise will influnce me to cancel the order.

jmoore2k
NW Arkansas
Yes, I've had the Berk on for about 2 months. It's not any louder but the sound becomes more bass, like the thing is growling. A guy who drove with me before and after made the comment that mine sounded "angry". He has the same exhaust as I do (Fuji) and the 2 cars sound about the same until you step on it.

[Silver_Devil]

Early this summer I got the same code. It tured out that the cat internals disitigrated and took out the O2 sensor. Honda covered the cat under waranty. I probablyt could have fought to have the sensor covered too but the dealer only charged me for the part. I have an '06.

[Jerome]

Thanks Dave, I look forward to hearing what my S will sound like with the Berk cat installed.

Jerome
NW Arkansas