Misfire CEL

[I<3MyS2K]

I am epicly screwed.

I bought MY04 at what I thought was a reputable Toyota dealer. I bought it as is, yes I know big mistake, so ultimately I'm most likely not getting any help. She only had 19k miles and drove better than any AP2 I've driven.

At this point I've had the car for a little over a month. A week after I bought it I went on a weekend road trip, over 500 miles in total. I had no issues. No CEL, no oil loss, no problems at all.

A week later I turned it on and had a CEL. It was throwing 300, 301 and 302. Potamkin Honda blamed it on Shell gas and reset it.

A week later or so it came back. This time it was 1399 and 301. I took it back to Potamkin solely with the intent to tell them their Shell is bad gas theory is bunk. They tried to get me for 300 to check the plugs, coilpacks and do a compression test. I said thanks but no thanks.

What I should have done at this point was go to this other dealer Rick Case, that I had read good things about. Instead out of frustration I reset the code and thought about selling it to a dealer. What I ended up doing was calling up Rick Case Honda, but they said since I reset the CEL, to wait until it came back on again to bring it in.

So now its back, and I brought it in. They had the car for 3 hours or so when they came and told me that all signs are pointing to bad valves. They wanted me to allow them to strip the head and check the valves. They also said there was low compression in 1 and 2. Then the guy said he was mistake it was 1 and 4. I really thought at first that I could trust these people, but at this point I'm very scared and dont have any idea what to do. On the basis that if the valves were fine, the extra cost of the tear down would go towards actually finding/fixing the cause.

So I get a call the next day, I apparently have bad valves in cylinder number 1, and they are sending the head to a machine shop for further inspection. Also he says the block is fine.

So now I am in limbo waiting for a call back to see what the machine shop has to say. Am I being completely screwed? They wouldnt just say I needed valves right? I mean what if they replace said valves and this CEL comes back? And why just in cylinder 1, when he said the compression was low on 1 and 4?

Basically right now I'm at their mercy. I just thought I'd make a thread about it, but I dont know why because I cant do much else now...

[griffon]

Give American Honda a call and see what they can or will do for you. The worst they can do is what you already have.

But rarely they have helped in cases where the car was out of warranty before.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[I<3MyS2K]

I suppose you mean the 800 number on this page http://automobiles.honda.com/information/customer-relations.aspx

Cant hurt to ask I guess, thanks

[repiv]

I'm hoping that they have at least narrowed it down to the valves. It's sad to see that your car was subject to a likely gross over-rev and the results are what you've just discovered. Don't say anything to Honda about your suspicions when you communicate with them. With the low mileage on the car, they might give you some good will repair or perhaps split the cost with you. As we've discussed in our many PMs, the previous owner most likely had a mishap and his age wasn't much of a factor in preventing what happened.
Since our communications, I have been in communications with another "mature" S2000 owner who is going through almost exactly what you are going through. He accidentally rammed it into a lower gear from redline while playing on the track. It happens and symptoms don't appear till weeks or even months later. His head is at the shop now and he's awaiting news on what to do next. In his case, he didn't get rid of the car like your car's previous owner, who most likely feared for the worse and flogged the car before symptoms showed up.
Worst case scenario, you would be looking at new valve, valve guides, valve seals, spring retainers and a possibility of cams of the lobes have been scored. It may only be #1 that has visible signs of "bad valves" while the other cylinders may also be bent so as to not seal properly. When doing valves, all of them should be done, not just the ones that show bad compression or visible damage. Getting the head off and back on and doing all the adjustments is the main cost. The cost of the parts won't likely be the biggest expenditure.
Hopefully, you've eliminated the other stuff I mentioned in all the PMs so that once you get the valves attended to, that will be it.

[I<3MyS2K]

well american honda only confirmed my screwedness...they swore to me up and down that the next step in their troubleshooting was to strip the head and check the valves. they never said anything about changing them all even if only some showed visible damage. they did say they will guarantee all the work...most likely im just going to see if they will make me a somewhat decent offer, and im just going to sell them the car after they say its "fixed" because im almost certain it wont be. and once i get the bill ill be going to the dealer where i bought the car. im sure they wont do anything but im going to try


and just to be clear, you're saying that even if none of the other valves show signs of damage that they should all be changed? so what if they say theyre only changing the damaged ones, do i insist they do them all?

[griffon]

If I had the head off I would do all of them.

[I<3MyS2K]

so what does that say about the quality of this dealer that said they would only replace the ones that needed replacing? yet they are saying the job will be guaranteed. would you tell them to go ahead and replace everything?

[Geo02s2k]

The big cost is the labor to get at all of that. I'm with the others in that I'd replace 'em all if I suspected them. On the other hand, if they're going to guarantee their work (and you should get it in writing) and pay for any labor if they need to go back in, then what the heck.

[I<3MyS2K]

well they have sent the head to a machine shop to be inspected thouroughly...i am hoping that they would check all the valves and change them as needed...i dont see how they can guarantee their work if they dont check/change everything...but yes i am planning to get this supposed guarantee in writing...

[griffon]

I would not trust them very far. If something goes wrong I'd bet they would only guarantee the work on the valves they replaced, not on the others.

[I<3MyS2K]

but they are telling me they are sending the head to a machine shop to check all the clearances/specs or whatever...shouldnt that mean that if the other valves that they arent changing checked out ok? im going to definitely find this out. but i would think it should. then again i thought i wouldnt be sold a car from a very big dealer that had been over revved. then again if the first owner got rid of it right after he over revved it, then they probably wouldnt have noticed if it wasnt that bad, just like my dumb ass thought the car drove fine

[I<3MyS2K]

this just in...apparently there were some damaged valve guides, or seats or both in addition to the valves. they're replacing all the valves even tho they werent all damaged. total out the door with tax $1875 greenbacks.../life

[I<3MyS2K]

all i can say is wow...

so i get the call this morning, the car is ready. first of all i want an itemized bill of what was done at this machine shop they sent the head too. nope no dice. bent valve and valve guides, cylinder head repair and installed. thats all the bill says. so all i have to prove that all the valves were changed, is this guys word. as far as how many valve guides were repaired, no idea. that was 530 bones. im going to do everything in my power to find out exactly what was done in writing.

1000 bucks for the labor at the dealer. initially it was 100 for the diagnosis, which took 3 hrs. Then I had to ok 400 more for the head tear down. So that leaves 500, which i assume is to bolt the head back on. the rest, parts and taxes

When he first called, I said is there any break in procedure for valves. No, he says. So as I'm following along with him as he reads the bill to tell me whats done, I see him come to the part that says and I quote " vehicle needs a breakin period at least for 500 miles" Whats that mean I said. He calls the tech. He calls the tech again. Tech finally comes. Oh just drive it normal he says. Whats that mean? I wanted to say dont hit vtec? But they already think I caused the bent valves, so I said what rpm? Now instead of drive it normal hes like oh 4 or 5 rpms.

If you've read this far I appreciate it. This is going somewhere I promise.

I went to the used car lot, to get an appraisal. I still havent returned the rental. Anyway I get an appraisal, return the rental, and go to put the top down. Start the car, CHECK ENGINE LIGHT! Holy crap, I **** bricks. Im just kidding potential buyers the leather is fine.

I havent even left the damn property and my worst nightmare, the light is back w00t. I go back around and bring it in, they take it back, bring it back around. Oh dont worry, we just forgot to put the IACV vac hose back on...what else did you forget to do guys? To be contd...unless I take their offer to buy it, which at this point, Id gamble might be a blessing

[I<3MyS2K]

WOW...friggin unbelievable...ITS BACK AGAIN! went to start the car just now. CHECK MOTHAPHUCKIN ENGINE LIGHT


are these people serious?

[repiv]

I think these guys are either incompetent or they played you. I think I may have mentioned this to you before in PMs or maybe on the forum. Misfire codes have a very specific set of diagnostics to be followed. No service tech should simply make an assumption and go directly to one particular item as the fix. The inspection of the valves is but only one thing in a long list of things to check and eliminate before proceeding to the next item. Valves are not near the head of the list.

[bimdub]

exactly, when my engine started making trouble (noise) due to a chewed up lobe on the camshaft (possibly from a prior owner over rev) there was no CEL.....the valve guides were out of spec as well as a cracked retainer...it should be allowed for you to inspect the old parts before you take delivery of the vehicle after a repair!

[I<3MyS2K]

i dont have the bill in front of me. it said plugs and coils checked out ok. then it says compression for 2 and 3 were 225, and if you can believe this, it says 1 and 4 were 25...ill double check it but it was 25 lol....how the hell? so from there it says head tear down, found broken valve/guides...

how is it legal for them to screw me like this? dont i have any kind of legal rights?

[I<3MyS2K]

exactly, when my engine started making trouble (noise) due to a chewed up lobe on the camshaft (possibly from a prior owner over rev) there was no CEL.....the valve guides were out of spec as well as a cracked retainer...it should be allowed for you to inspect the old parts before you take delivery of the vehicle after a repair!

honestly man, they could show me valves from a different car, and i wouldnt know the difference.

[repiv]

If 2 of your cylinders were at 25, the car would have driven like crap. From your description, the car drove OK except for the CEL. You may have to contact American Honda or a lawyer to find out what your rights are in this.

[bimdub]

question......was the car driveable when you took it to them?

the reason I ask.....is how well did it run?

an engine running on two cylinders (which would be the case if you had that low of compression) would be terribly difficult to start and have nearly nothing for power. it would be very very noticable!

[I<3MyS2K]

If 2 of your cylinders were at 25, the car would have driven like crap. From your description, the car drove OK except for the CEL. You may have to contact American Honda or a lawyer to find out what your rights are in this.

exactly my point...well i hope american honda can do something, because unless a lawyer only charges if he collects, then thats out of the question...

[I<3MyS2K]

question......was the car driveable when you took it to them?

the reason I ask.....is how well did it run?

an engine running on two cylinders (which would be the case if you had that low of compression) would be terribly difficult to start and have nearly nothing for power. it would be very very noticable!

it ran perfect...the reason i didnt mention the 25 at first, is because the bill is littered with typos...i think i thought to myself 25 cant be right...but now that i think about it im fairly positive it says 25. plus with this light coming back on now makes me think they didnt do anything...and they just put the 25 on there to sell the con better

[bimdub]

on a side note I recently went over 12,000 rpms on my M10 BMW and suffered only a maladjusted exhaust valve and a fouled plug....of course the noise and lack of power was hugely noticable. I would suspect they replaced the head due to "jumping the gun" or snap diagnosis?

[I<3MyS2K]

i suspect they did it because they are crooks...but i have no proof of that unfortunately...what i need to do is go to autozone before i go there and pull the code to see if its a misfire...if it is...then can i go over there and call the cops, and file a report to say they ripped me off?

[bimdub]

not sure if that is going to work, but its always a great idea to know what the codes are before you take it in....

[I<3MyS2K]

honestly i dont even want to see it...and its far enough to get back to them, i dont want to go out of my way...plus i really dont care, im not paying them another cent...id like to see if they have the balls to tell me thats what it is

and im at 1/4 tank so while im there i can maybe get a free fill up...probably not tho

[Goku]

Not sure where you live but the best thing you can do is call the local news paper. Get the "troubleshooter" guy or whatever they call him in your area. They will go down there and tear the place up for you. No lawyer needed. Also call the BBB. Most dealerships are with them. Next thing you can do is call Toyota. And bitch bitch bitch. Toyota HATES poor customer reviews for their service departments. I doubt American Honda can do anything for you because you didn't buy it at a Honda dealership. Let this be a lesson to all that read this. DON'T buy a car from a dealership that doesn't have the cars name on the dealerships door. Its nothing but problems when the car breaks. I say this having worked for dealerships for almost 10yrs now. If you want a Honda buy from a Honda dealership. Good luck with this. Your going to need to bring out your brass balls, and hit the ground running if you want to get this fixed. Best thing you can do is raise a stink with everyone and anyone that will listen. I know it can be hard if its not in your nature to do that, but if you don't you will be the one left holding the bag, its the dealership way.

[Goku]

The other reason you buy a Honda at a Honda dealership is, you would have gotten a warranty with them. But buying a Toyota at a Honda dealership, and you probably wont get a warranty. Another good reason to aways buy this way. Hell I got a warranty on my 02 with 36k on it back in 05. Warranted up to 100k or 6yrs from when I bought it... cost 1200 bucks, and has already paid for its self.

[I<3MyS2K]

at this point i am more pissed off at the honda dealer that did the repair, then i am at the toyota dealer where i bought the car. sure theres a possibility that toyota knew it was screwed up and sold it anyway, but the car ran fine. these people that ripped me off for a valve job, and then the cel has gone off twice, they are the real enemy i believe. they told me that the only way to bend valves is an over rev, and that isnt covered by any warranty anyway. so even if i had bought the car there for example, or even another honda dealer, i would have been screwed.

thanks for the advice...believe me i am not going to take this lying down.

[I<3MyS2K]

ok i have an update...this is effing amazing

so they're telling me that this code now is again for the iacv vacuum hose...apparently these geniuses washed down the engine bay after their "work" and for some reason put silicone on ****...so this vacuum hose was slipping off the nipple...they claim thats fixed now

while i was waiting for them to figure that out, i went to the parts department to try and get an itemized list of what was done to the head. the parts manager produces an invoice from the machine shop that reads: basic reconditioning (aluminum cylinder head) 4 cyls SOHC- 16 valves...im typing this word for word. then it says machine for & install valve guides

ok now check this out

they bring me into the office and confess that NONE OF THE VALVES WERE CHANGED...apparently my service writer had a brain fart...it was the valve guides that were broken and they say now all the valves were fine...yet it still says "found bent valve and broken valve guides" on the main bill...im seriously blown away...i need to call american honda and managers and **** and complain about these people and something has to be done to make me feel like i wasnt ripped off...but i need a drink...im gonna go get some lunch and a couple drinks...i cant deal with this right now

[Chickwithastick]

Dang Patty....

I know that you can have a tendency to.... "go off on people" from time to time... just make sure that when you talk to people who really SHOULD be able to help you... whether in a higher position etc... to be respectful. The more intelligent you sound (even if you really aren't :rofl:) the more you will really get out of it. If they basically keep treating you how they are now, threaten them with a lawyer... at this point, you may end up going that way anyway.

I agree that you need to speak to someone higher up on the food chain, though. Obviously keeping lawyers out is in everyone's best interest for $$$ reasons, so try to work it out... just keep asking for someone higher if people still treat you like ~~

[Goku]

Well seeing that you had the repairs done at a Honda dealership now you can call American Honda. You got the royal screw job by that place. And if they charged you for a valve job but did not put any valves in then you need a refund. I would get on the horn with American Honda now and tell them whats going on and express how un satisfied you are. I've dealt with them a few times and they have always come through for me.

[bimdub]

seen this before!

valve guides out of spec at an early age?

in my case the actual problem was staring them in the face.....long before they ever got to the valve guides.

[jun11]

If I didnt work on my own cars I would never, never, never take my car to a dealer. I would do my best to find a good local shop for any future problems.

[I<3MyS2K]

i've got about 300 mi and its not back on yet(crosses fingers)...i dont understand how the machine shop didnt change the valves...i guess since the warranty on the job is only 1yr or 12k mi they can afford to do ****ty jobs

so i just got off the phone with the machine shop. at first the poor guy who must be so beaten down by rick case, didnt even want to discuss the job with me. then after i explained to him how these dooshes are treating me, he softened up. and when he realized i had the invoice, he explained it to me willingly. the valves all checked out ok he said. they werent bent. but the exhaust valve guides were bad. also he said had the valves been bad they would have told rick case to provide valves...he says the head is good as new, so i feel a little bit better now

theres got to be some way i can use the actual bill from rick case that says there were bent valves, and that guys statement that they were fine, to own these *******s...ffffuuuuuuu i didnt get it on tape. but his invoice doesnt say anything about bent valves