Difficulty Shifting?

[parkerdt]

Recently, my AP1 has started to develop a new behavior - when it is first started in the morning, it is very difficult to shift. the first shift into second sometimes required a double clutch, and downshifting into first does, as well. This behavior seems to disappear after the car has warmed up, and I've run through the gears a few times.

Car is an 2002, 54k miles. All maintenance performed per the Honda severe schedule, religiously. Tranny fluid was just changed, and did not change the symptoms.

What should I do next to diagnose/fix this problem?

thanks,
Dave

[mlc]

Hey Dave, mine has always done what you describe. I would assume that the dealer put the revised MTF in it.

My first 10 miles or so are very gentle until the tranny and motor have a chance to get good and warm. Does it improve once the car has warmed up?

I am sure the man(repiv) will chime in with a little more insight.

Good luck.

Kevin

[parkerdt]

Yes it improves to normal after the car warms up. My AP2 exhibits none of this behavior, and the AP1 has only started doing this within the last 4 months or so.... We did use the revised MTF for the tranny fluid change.

Dave

[mlc]

I know this isn't a very good explanation but could it just be that these are the colder months of the year so warming up the car takes longer and seems to exaggerate the symptoms? Mine is definitely more noticable in the cold weather.

Are you having any of the well documented grinding or jumping out of gear?

Kevin

[Jasonoff]

Outside temperature plays a huge part in this.

I would also check your clutch fluid if you haven't already done so.

[mlc]

Outside temperature plays a huge part in this.

I would also check your clutch fluid if you haven't already done so.

Good point. Have you had the clutch bled? Or checked for any leaking of the clutch master cylinder?

Kevin

[jimmynumbers]

Dave, my '03 does this and the Ex's '02 did it as well. I've always heard that this is a "normal" quirk with our cars.

Jim

[txchopper5]

Outside temperature plays a huge part in this.

I would also check your clutch fluid if you haven't already done so.
I used to have this problem all the time and would just add clutch fluid and it would be fine until it drained down again a few weeks later. Never could find a leak, i just bled the whole system a week ago and we'll see if that fixes it (i heard i would, but we shall find out).

Also, if you're low on fluid and don't have stains where you park, check the carpet under your dash around the pedals, apparently the master cylinder will leak sometimes and the fluid will make it's way in through the firewall and soak in to the carpet so you can't find it.

[dlq04]

AP1 and AP2 do not have the same transmission. Honda made a number of changes in 2004, like changing the syncros from brass to carbon fiber. AP1 transmissions have had a variety of complaints depending on the car - some are smooth as butter, some buzz, some are notchy, etc.... so there's a lot a individual differences depending on the individual AP1 car. Seems no two are alike. Finally, it is generally considered normal with manual transmissions to have a some difficulty engaging when cold. If this is your first winter with the AP1, I suspect it is normal for that car.

Here's one test you might try (I think this advice came from XViper). It may be cause by the clutch is not fully coming disengaged when it is cold. One test is to turn off the engine and see if it goes into gear easier. If it does then it may be the clutch. Another suggested test you can try: With nothing in front of the car (in a level parking lot) with the engine running open the door and take your foot off of the brake. Now when putting the shifter into 1st watch the ground to see if the car creeps forward any. If it does then the clutch isn't fully disengaging. The only way to fix this is to take the transmission out and clean the splines of the main shaft and clutch disk. If the splines are dirty they get cleaned off when the transmission comes out which destroys the evidence of dirt/etc. on the splines but this should correct the problem.

PS txchopper5, bledding the system is not going to stop a leak. A leak is a leak.

[paS2K]

my '00 silverstone had this problem, but my current '03 gpw does NOT.....which verifies what Dave said about "each one is different" :crazy:

[repiv]

Jasonoff and dlq04 has some good points. I'll add the following:

Check where the plunger goes into the master cylinder at the firewall near the pedal. If it's "wet", you've got a leak. If it's not wet and you are still seeing the level drop in the reservoir over time, you may still have a leak, but it'll be internalized or at the slave cylinder end. In either case, a replacement cylinder is in order, be it a master or slave or both. Clutch fluid level should not go down much over time as the clutch wears. A millimeter or so of clutch wear won't result in that much fluid to make up the difference.

Check the "ball and socket" at the end of the slave cylinder - the ball being the slave plunger and the socket being the end of the release fork. This area can get pitted and corroded. Sanding this down to smooth it out and then greasing it will make for a smoother clutch action.

Difficulty in getting into gear from a dead stop from neutral is usually an indication of too much power being transferred into the transmission. This is caused by the clutch being unable to be fully disengaged. This can be caused by several things - air or water in the clutch fluid, a leak in the clutch hydraulics, bad bleed from the last fluid change of the clutch, improper clutch pedal rod adjustment or a clutch that is dragging badly for whatever reason. This is where an "engine off", clutch in, shift through all the gears will often times eliminate the actual transmission as the root problem. If you can get the thing to go fairly easily into 1st and every other gear in this "test", then concentrate on the clutch or the clutch hydraulics. Another "test" and not a bad habit to get into, is to shift into 4th, then into 1st. This stops the transmission from spinning before attempting to engage first. If this works well, it may be an indication that the fluid gets very viscous when cold - perhaps too viscous. Think about changing it. We have all seen that is it much more difficult to engage 1st gear if the road speed is too high. It can be done but a double clutch is required so that the tranny can be spun up to beat the "blocker ring". The blocker ring is put there to avoid a downshift into 1st (which is the furthest spaced ratio) from too high a road speed (where the output side of the tranny is already spinning quite fast and thus, the input side must be going so much faster after the downshift). This can cause sudden drive wheel lockup and/or drivetrain damage. In a cold transmission, this same blocker ring can offer resistence to 1st gear engagement, especially if the clutch system or the tranny fluid is not in good order. Stopping the tranny from spinning (which does in neutral with engine going, clutch engaged), will also sidestep any blocker ring intervention.

The following has little to do with difficulty in getting the tranny into 1st gear in the "cold" scenario, but might be worth mentioning for some readers.
I was going to do another "Tip of the Day" to address this issue of "cold" shifting difficulties and/or notchiness, a bit later, but I'll throw some stuff out there for thought now. I've experimented with this lately just to see what changes in characteristics there can be if the driver changes technique just a little bit. We all know and understand that when cold, AP1 transmissions (and sometimes even AP2 as well) can be quite notchy, some to the point of a near grind. If the clutch and the clutch hydraulics are in good order, there should never be a near grind unless the tranny has been damaged from a bad mis-shift or a skip-shift gone terribly wrong.
We all know what "rev matching" is, but most of us only know it for downshifting, where you blip the throttle to raise the rpm so that the revs of the engine are compatable after the downshift, with the revs of the output side of the tranny. However, many of us forget that we should also rev match on the upshift, too. In a DOWNshift, the revs have to INCREASE to smooth out the shift. This also assists the syncros in doing the job for which they were designed. Sure, they can do the job, but why beat them up unnecessarily? And when the tranny is cold, the syncros have to work much harder, so why not help them out more during these times? In an UPshift, the revs have to DECREASE to make the shift more smooth. This entails waiting a brief moment as the revs naturally fall when the gas is let off during the shift.
Since I have no idea how fast or how slow each of you shift normally, I will only suggest that you try the following:
When the drivetrain is cold, experiment with changing the speed of your shift. However long you normally take to complete the shift, try it slower. If there is an improvement in shifter feel, try it even slower. If that doesn't work, try it faster and faster to see if any change for the better happens. Hopefully, what you have accomplished is that you have found an understanding of what it takes to match revs on a cold upshift. This should make you a much better driver and less annoyed at a car that is just acting normally.

Sorry for being so long winded. If these things were easy, it wouldn't plague so many people so much of the time.

[parkerdt]

How does one tell the fill level in the clutch reservoir? I see no obvious MAX and MIN line. I will note that my brake fluid is about halfway between MAX and MIN - not sure this car has ever had either fluid changed. There is no obvious wet near the rod in the footwell - if there is a leak it is very tiny.... There is one seam in the plastic of the slave cylinder at the top of the throat, my level is about 1/2 inch below this.

Engine off, shifting is easy.

[repiv]

How does one tell the fill level in the clutch reservoir? I see no obvious MAX and MIN line. I will note that my brake fluid is about halfway between MAX and MIN - not sure this car has ever had either fluid changed. There is no obvious wet near the rod in the footwell - if there is a leak it is very tiny.... There is one seam in the plastic of the slave cylinder at the top of the throat, my level is about 1/2 inch below this.

Engine off, shifting is easy.

For the clutch, you should remove the cap and have a visual inspection. The fluid should be approx. just below the lowest point of the cap when the cap in screwed on. If the level gets too close to the hole at the bottom, the fluid can slosh around during normal driving and cause air to get sucked in. Since you don't have any evidence of a leak (level not decreasing much), this is unlikely.

This would suggest that your fluid is probably on the old side and has absorbed too much water. With water, comes air.

I'm sure you must have meant master cylinder. That's the one in the engine bay. The slave is bolted to the side of the transmission.

This would suggest to me that your transmission is operating normally and it's the clutch or clutch hydraulics that you should concentrate on.

I would strongly advise that you change the clutch fluid and ensure you do a proper bleed. By this, I mean to use a brand name DOT 3 or DOT 4 brake fluid. After about 3 to 4 pumping strokes, put more fluid into the reservoir so you don't risk pulling air into the system. After the bleed, top up the fluid a final time, cap it. Make sure the bleeder is closed and then pump the pedal with your hand up and down a few times for the first upper 1/3 of the pedal travel. Double check the level as one more failsafe. I think I have a clutch fluid bleed "How To" on this forum.
http://forums.s2kca.com/showthread.php?t=12154

[parkerdt]

Yes, I got confused about which cylinder is called what. The clutch master cylinder that sits directly outboard of the brake master cylinder is the one I am discussing. I could fit a fair amount (several ounces) of fluid in and not have it impact the cap when closed.

Doing this proceedure myself is well beyond what I am comfortable with and have facilities for. So I guess I'll make a trip to the shop, and get the brake fluid done at the same time! I'm blessed with a service manager who owns an S and my dealer has always done great work for me....

So, brake fluid aside, we start with draining and refilling the clutch fluid with a proper bleed, and if that cures the problem, great. If not, we move on to the clutch itself. We continue to monitor the level in te reservoir, and periodically check the area around the pedal plunger for signs of leaks. Is that about right?

thanks again!
Dave

[repiv]

I could fit a fair amount (several ounces) of fluid in and not have it impact the cap when closed.

we start with draining and refilling the clutch fluid with a proper bleed, and if that cures the problem, great. If not, we move on to the clutch itself.
Dave

If you put that much fluid in to top up, I am now thinking that you have drawn air into the system. Now, you must wonder why the fluid got "used up" like it did. I am inclined to believe you do have a leak somewhere, though it may not be immediately visible.
You don't have to "drain" the fluid. Flushing and bleeding it is one process. See my link to the "how to" and you'll see what I mean. I know you're not going to do it, but it will give you an idea of what's involved.
With having lost that much fluid and the good possibility that it's air in the system, I think that the actual clutch is likely not at fault in this issue. The flush and bleed should bring your shift action back to normal till more fluid is lost. You could simply keep checking it and topping it off so as to never draw air in. If that is the case, you will have to do more investigative work to determine where the fluid is leaking from.

[parkerdt]

OK here is a pic - this should make it more clear....

http://parkerdt.smugmug.com/photos/498309609_XHS5x-M.jpg

[repiv]

Although not dangerously low, it is low enough that a high slosh factor could pull air into the bottom hole. Nevertheless, that fluid is pretty foul looking. I would say is hasn't been changed in a very very long time. Clutch fluid should be changed every 2 to 3 years.

[Jasonoff]

That is nasty and it's pretty low. You can see the dirt ring where the level used to be.

Me thinks you have a leak...

[parkerdt]

OK, but there is no palpable evidence of leak - nothing on the garage floor and nothing detectable inside the firewall at the plunger. I'm going to get the system flushed and filled properly, and monitor, for now. Obviously, if I continue to see the levels drop, it is time for more drastic measures. Reasonable way to procede?

I think the lighting makes the fluid look nastier than it is, but I agree it is nasty. As an aside, I've owned this car about 9 months, and always found the previous owner to be fastidious....

If there were a leak in the slave cylinder, I should see evidence on the garage floor, right? If It is the master cylinder, that leaks through the firewall, if I understand correctly.

Thanks for the help guys!

Dave

[mlc]

Hey Dave, the clutch bleed is about a 10 to 15 minute job. I can certainely bring the stuff with me to the meet on the 4th to get it done. All you need is the brake fluid. I am not sure if you want to wait that long. I have done the clutch bleed twice now, my car and someone elses so I am comfortable doing it.

Up to you my friend just let me know.

Kevin

[repiv]

Leaks can be "internalized", meaning that the fluid can reside outside the normal parts of the system and yet still be held within boots and chambers not venting to the outside. It could sit between the first seal of the master plunger and the last seal before the plunger exit. It could be held within the rubber boot of the slave cylinder. It could have also disappeared so slowly that it never formed a large droplet. This would leave evidence in the form of dirt build up at connections and on the line between connections.

[parkerdt]

Thanks, Kevin, but unlikely I'm going to make the meet on the 4th. Tax time. :( Apprecate the offer, for sure.

I've written the previous owner, and we'll see - heck I suppose this could be 6-year old fluid.

[parkerdt]

Leaks can be "internalized", meaning that the fluid can reside outside the normal parts of the system and yet still be held within boots and chambers not venting to the outside. It could sit between the first seal of the master plunger and the last seal before the plunger exit. It could be held within the rubber boot of the slave cylinder. It could have also disappeared so slowly that it never formed a large droplet. This would leave evidence in the form of dirt build up at connections and on the line between connections.

I checked for dirt build-up as best I could with my fingers and a flashlight. The rod between the pedal and master cylinder seemed lightly slippery, but not wet, and no stain on the carpet.

Are you suggesting I replace the master and slave cylinder now, Dave? I'm confused...

[Jasonoff]

There's quite a bit of fluid missing which is why it seems like you may have a leak somewhere.

I would just have it flushed and monitor the level. No sense in worrying about it until you have to :)

[parkerdt]

Given that my brake fluid is also about half-way between Max and Min, I am suspecting evaporative loss more than a leak, based on eveything I have read and what you guys have said, and the threads Repiv has pointed me to, and the lack of evidence for a leak so far.

If it is a leak I'll deal with that when it is more obvious, I guess :) And probably time to do those in my AP2 as well, it will be 3 in May.

For now, fluid flush and change, brake and clutch.

Dave

[repiv]

I checked for dirt build-up as best I could with my fingers and a flashlight. The rod between the pedal and master cylinder seemed lightly slippery, but not wet, and no stain on the carpet.

Are you suggesting I replace the master and slave cylinder now, Dave? I'm confused...
A few ounces lost from the reservoir doesn't mean you will always see it as a stain on the carpet. It's taken a long time for it to disappear.
No, I'm not saying this at all. After you flush the system, keep an eye on the level like Jasonoff said. Monitor the situation first and if the signs point to it, start with a new master. Then monitor some more. Chances are it won't need to go further, but if it does, then the slave is next.

Given that my brake fluid is also about half-way between Max and Min, I am suspecting evaporative loss more than a leak, based on eveything I have read and what you guys have said, and the threads Repiv has pointed me to, and the lack of evidence for a leak so far.
Don't let the brake fluid level influence your understanding of what's going on with the clutch. Brake pads wear on 2 surfaces at each corner, so multiply that times 4 and the fluid drop is typical of normal pad wear. It takes much more fluid to compensate for pad wear. Brake fluid has a very high boiling point, so evaporation is extremely slow and isn't a factor. Remember, it's like an oil. While we're on the topic, you should probably check the pad thickness and also do a brake fluid flush. It's likely to be the same age as the clutch fluid. Brake fluid should be changed a bit more often than clutch fluid because of its close proximity to extremen heat. It degrades much faster.

[parkerdt]

Brake pads were checked at my last service, and have plenty of wear left, thankfully.

So I will schedule to get clutch fluid flushed/changed and brake fluid flushed.changed. You are correct, they may not have been changed in a very long time. I have e-mailed the original owner to see if he recalls when it was last done, but obviously that does not eliminate the need for me to get it done NOW :).

I will ask them to inspect around the clutch master and slave for leaks, and if they also find none, simply monitor myself every couple of weeks as I am checking the oil.

I will also do the same flush/fluid change on my AP2 since I know the maintenance history of that car, and this service has never been done.

thanks guys!

Dave

[parkerdt]

Hey Kevin how are you with brakes? Wanna make a side trip to Mebane? :)

Dave

Hey Dave, the clutch bleed is about a 10 to 15 minute job. I can certainely bring the stuff with me to the meet on the 4th to get it done. All you need is the brake fluid. I am not sure if you want to wait that long. I have done the clutch bleed twice now, my car and someone elses so I am comfortable doing it.

Up to you my friend just let me know.

Kevin

[mlc]

Just did a brake job and bleed this past weekend. Simple job. When did you have in mind? Did you just need to bleed both the clutch and brakes? Hell the longest part of the job is getting the tires off:D . Let me know. We could do both cars if you wanted to. Two bottles of brake fluid for one and three for two should work.

Let me know.

Kevin

[parkerdt]

Mebbe we should do a Fluid Day. Unfortunately, any seious outing for me will have to wait until after April 15. But hey, you wanna drive out, I can definitely chill some beer and throw some meat on the grill. And I can show you the Mebane drive course. :)

I have zero tools for this sort of work, however. Let me see what the dealer wants to do the job.
If exhorbitant, I may bribe you.:) 5 bottlesof brake fluid - check!

thanks,
Dave

[parkerdt]

My dealer quotes $45 to flush and refill clutch fluid, and $45 to do the brake fluid at the same time. They also know about AP1 clutch issues well enough to ask if I checked the firewall carpet and the pedal plunger for wetness. So I think I am in good hands.

Dave

[dlq04]

My dealer quotes $45 to flush and refill clutch fluid, and $45 to do the brake fluid at the same time. They also know about AP1 clutch issues well enough to ask if I checked the firewall carpet and the pedal plunger for wetness. So I think I am in good hands.

Dave

That's good. Hell, that's better than good, that's great. When I went to my local dealer they did not know where to plug in the instrument to read the alarm codes. I swear to god, they told me they would have to remove the dash, till I showed them where the input was! And, they had the same Haynes manual I had. Now you know why I only would use them to get a 'reading'; anything else, forget it.

[parkerdt]

Yes, I've been really pleased with my dealer. I am sure it helps that my service advisor owns an
'03 Suzuka, as well. :)

Dave

[bimdub]

off topic, but the first time I had a Honda Tech look at my car he said "holy ~~ its rear wheel drive!"

[Looter]

:thumbup: There's the key, Dave..... Your advisor owns one...;) Yes, I've been really pleased with my dealer. I am sure it helps that my service advisor owns an
'03 Suzuka, as well. :)

Dave

[parkerdt]

Indeed. Rest assured I checked that out BEFORE I let them touch my car for the first time, Looter! Now that I have 2, I'm even more particular. Of course I'm also a better customer, with 3 Hondas, and I have gotten to know my service advisor pretty well. It all helps.

I am told that they guy who actually works on my car was S2000 certified, but I am also told there is no such thing. Still, he has a framed S2k Certificate of Achievement hung in his workspace.... And, so far, they've done good work in the almost 2 years we've been here.

I also made it a point to seek out the General Manager when we first moved back, and he, personally, gave me a tour of Burlington Honda and their facilities. They seem to really care at this dealership, and as long as that holds true, I will continue to use them when I need them. Heck, I've never seen a dealer that called me and asked permission to omit items from a scheduled service visit because "we did that 5000 miles ago, and you don't need it for another 5000 miles, so subtract $x from our quote". The way business should be done.

Dave

[parkerdt]

Back on topic. Is it OK to top up the clutch fluid reservior until I get the car in the shop, or is mixing brake fluids potentially bad?

I intend to keep my AP1 until the wheels fall off, but I also don't want to unintetionally hasten that process. :)

Thanks, all for the help in this thread! :thumbup: :thumbup:

Dave

[repiv]

Back on topic. Is it OK to top up the clutch fluid reservior until I get the car in the shop, or is mixing brake fluids potentially bad?

I intend to keep my AP1 until the wheels fall off, but I also don't want to unintetionally hasten that process. :)

Thanks, all for the help in this thread! :thumbup: :thumbup:

Dave

It's OK. Use DOT 3 because that's likely what's in it now. It might not help your current situation but at least it won't get worse if you put more fluid in.

[parkerdt]

Cool, thanks. I'll put some DOT3 in her tomorrow. My local Auto Zone is all about F-150s, but I do have to drive past 2 Honda dealers on the way to work.. :)

Of course, the dealer I use is 20 miles in the wrong direction, but it is hard to mess up a sealed container of fluid, I hope. :)


Dave