Alignment specs - who's using what?

[raymo19]

My new rear Yoko Advan Neova AD07s are here. Temps are supposed to be in the 70s here Thursday and Friday so I thought this would be an opportune time to get them mounted and balanced and a 4 wheel alignment. I'm going to get it done at the Firestone place. They will let you sit in the car so I think I will. They offer lifetime alignment for $149 so I plan to do that and go with the these specs for now and monitor tire wear:

Front
Castor: +6.45° or better
Camber: -1.25°
Toe: 0.00°

Rear:
Camber: -2.00°
Toe: .20° In Total .40°

I may do some autox this year but I'm mostly interested in running the mountain roads around here. Thoughts and critiques are welcome.

The fronts have about 9K miles on them so I'm looking to use them all up this go round.

[wildncrazy]

That's more or less what I've run for the past several years as a good compromise alignment for street, track and autocross.

The only issue I've found is lack of straight line grip. When I run 2 degrees of camber I can spin 'em in 3 gears and I'm running 265 Star Specs which are grippy as hell.

You wouldn't think a half a degree of camber would make a bit of difference in straight line grip. If I was running 4 degrees or more I'd expect some change.

[mlc]

I have a MY00 and run the UK specs and love it. The steering has a heavier feel and "tracks" the ruts in the road more but it is much more stable in the corners and plants the a$$ better.

Honda (UK) Recommended Optimum Specification

Front
Caster Left 6° 45"
Caster Right 6° 45"
Camber Left -1° 00"
Camber Right -1° 00"
Toe Left 0° 0"
Toe Right 0° 0"
Total Toe 0° 0"

Rear
Camber Left -2° 00"
Camber Right -2° 00"
Toe Left 0° 20"
Toe Right 0° 20"
Total Toe 0° 40"


As far as sitting in the car during the alignment. The car actually sites a little higher on the drivers side versus the passenger side. I don't know if that would effect the alignment. I am sure other's will chime in on that.

Good luck.

Kevin

[repiv]

Having talked to a track junkie who also happens to be a track instructor, he says if you are a serious track star or professional, you do everything with the driver's weight on board, however, he also freely admits that for most casual track guys and street cars, this is not necessary. Short of a professional, the average driver (even the casual track driver) won't be able to tell the difference. He says the same goes for corner weighting. Are you like a princess who can feel the pea at the bottom of a dozen mattresses? If you are, then sit in the car or throw in the equivalent amount of sacks of potatoes. I'm sure there are amateur primadonna drivers who will disagree. They feel the pea. ;)

[hecash]

This is clearly the best track alignment (very track-dedicated car) that I ever ran. The guy at the alignment shop was also a kart driver. He always came back from a test drive with a big smile on his face.

TRACK ALIGNMENT
Front
Camber - 1.5 d /-1.5 d
Caster +6.8 d / +6.8 d
Toe -0.03 in /-0.04 in
Total Toe-Out 0.07 in (toe out)

Rear
Camber-2.5 d /-2.4 d
Toe 0.09 in /0.10 in
Total Toe-In 0.18 in (toe in)

[gomarlins3]

UK specs for me.

[whitemike711]

Dumb ?, and i am sorry in advance. What is the diffrence in the UK specs and the US specs? Why would there be a diffrence? I don't track the car but i do drive fast and love going around corners fast. Would changing to the UK specs be worth it? Does this wear the tires more? Thank you.

[geras003]

That's what I've been running for about a year:
Actual printout from alignment shop:
Fronts:
Camber -1.18L -1.04R
Cross Camber -0.14
Caster 5.74L 5.36R
Cross Caster 0.38
Toe -.0.01L 0.00R
Total Toe 0.01
Set back 0.17

Rears:
Camber -1.99L -1.84R
Toe 0.16L 0.16R
Total toe 0.32
Thrust angle 0.00

I really like this setup... Dumb question is why Left and Right setting are different? Also why is it normal to have that caster setting in front - it's like 1 degree off UK spec alignment?? Whjat exactly caster setting would effect?

[repiv]

Whjat exactly caster setting would effect?

Aleksey, here's all you ever wanted to know about alignment and were afraid to ask:

http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm#Scrub%20Radius

Castor basically affects the way the steering comes back to center after a turn (or stay centered).

[geras003]

Thanks Dave! So if I go 1 degree more positive it should improve straight line tracking? Also is it OK to have variations in Left and Right settings? Or it's due to drivers weight compensation since that shop counts for that..

[repiv]

Thanks Dave! So if I go 1 degree more positive it should improve straight line tracking? Also is it OK to have variations in Left and Right settings? Or it's due to drivers weight compensation since that shop counts for that..

I don't think there's supposed to be any variation, but as with most adjustments, a certain amount of +/- variation is acceptable. Think of it as significant % error.

I've learned that the higher the caster, the better is the straight line tracking. Take the extreme case of motorcycles for example. A "crotch rocket" has low caster compared to a "chopper". The chopper at speed, almost runs straight all by itself. The crotch rocket tends to want to turn very easily. You almost think it and it does it.

[Jasonoff]

I have ran this alignment for the track 2 years in a row. I may tweak it a little now that I'll be running a non staggered setup with a thicker front swaybar.

Front:
Camber: 2.0°, 1.9°
Caster: 6.6°, 6.6°
Toe: -1.0mm, -1.0mm

Rear:
Camber: 2.6°, 2.6°
Toe: 4.5mm, 4.7mm

[raymo19]

I'm sure I'm not among those who would feel the pea. But then again I'd just as soon sit in the car as sit in the waiting area.:D

Harry - is that a typo on the castor specs you posted?:think:

Thanks all for the feedback!:rockon:

Having talked to a track junkie who also happens to be a track instructor, he says if you are a serious track star or professional, you do everything with the driver's weight on board, however, he also freely admits that for most casual track guys and street cars, this is not necessary. Short of a professional, the average driver (even the casual track driver) won't be able to tell the difference. He says the same goes for corner weighting. Are you like a princess who can feel the pea at the bottom of a dozen mattresses? If you are, then sit in the car or throw in the equivalent amount of sacks of potatoes. I'm sure there are amateur primadonna drivers who will disagree. They feel the pea. ;)

[Jasonoff]

Harry - is that a typo on the castor specs you posted?:think: I got 6.6° out of mine with -2.0° of camber so 6.8° seems about right with only -1.5° camber.

[raymo19]

I got 6.6° out of mine with -2.0° of camber so 6.8° seems about right with only -1.5° camber.

I meant the minus sign for the right front. I'm assuming it's a typo.

[Jasonoff]

Oh didn't even notice that :p

[hecash]

I meant the minus sign for the right front. I'm assuming it's a typo.

No. It's not a typo. My frame was bent and I only used it for banked circle tracks.

YES.......a typo it is.

[Jasonoff]

No. It's not a typo. My frame was bent and I only used it for banked circle tracks.Well then your inside camber is all wrong :poke:

[hecash]

Well then your inside camber is all wrong :poke:

No wonder I kept spinning out????????:D :D

[raymo19]

I got the rears mounted and balanced, flipped the fronts, and had the alignment done yesterday afternoon with me in the car. The shop I'd been using previously obviously leaves a bit to be desired:

Before:
Front
Left Right
Camber: -1.0° Camber: -0.4°
Caster: 5.5° Caster: 6.3°
Toe: -0.17° Toe: 0.26°

Rear
Left Right
Camber: -1.7° Camber: -1.1°
Toe: 0.51° Toe: -0.01°

After:
Front
Left Right
Camber: -1.2° Camber: -1.2°
Caster: 6.0° Caster: 6.2°
Toe: 0.02° Toe: 0.02°

Rear
Left Right
Camber: -2.0° Camber: -2.0°
Toe: 0.19° Toe: 0.25°

Overall I like this alignment so far. I wanted to get to 6.45° caster but 6 was all they could get on the left front. Any ideas why?

[Jasonoff]

I wanted to get to 6.45° caster but 6 was all they could get on the left front. Any ideas why?That doesn't make much sense. You only have -1.2° camber so you should easily be able to get 6.45°.

[raymo19]

That doesn't make much sense. You only have -1.2° camber so you should easily be able to get 6.45°.

I thought it curious too. I have no idea what the problem may be. The ball joints are in good shape and the other parts seem fine as well. The car is ten years old though.:think:

[whitemike711]

I have a MY00 and run the UK specs and love it. The steering has a heavier feel and "tracks" the ruts in the road more but it is much more stable in the corners and plants the a$$ better.

Honda (UK) Recommended Optimum Specification

Front
Caster Left 6° 45"
Caster Right 6° 45"
Camber Left -1° 00"
Camber Right -1° 00"
Toe Left 0° 0"
Toe Right 0° 0"
Total Toe 0° 0"

Rear
Camber Left -2° 00"
Camber Right -2° 00"
Toe Left 0° 20"
Toe Right 0° 20"
Total Toe 0° 40"


As far as sitting in the car during the alignment. The car actually sites a little higher on the drivers side versus the passenger side. I don't know if that would effect the alignment. I am sure other's will chime in on that.

Good luck.

Kevin

I plan on getting the UK specs done on my 2001. I have the original 16's on it with RE01's. Is this the specs i should give the guy to do my alignment? Thanks guys.

[repiv]

I thought it curious too. I have no idea what the problem may be. The ball joints are in good shape and the other parts seem fine as well. The car is ten years old though.:think:

I wonder if it's possible that after 10 years of alignments, that the concentric cam and/or the part the cam pushes against, is worn down.

[Jasonoff]

My car is also 10yrs old and I have been beating the crap out of it on the track for 5+ years.

Unless something is damaged or the shops measurement tools are off? Not sure how they could only get 6.0° and 6.2°.

[raymo19]

A couple of years ago I had a glancing encounter with a concrete highway divider on a rainy, foggy winter night making a left turn. Could that have bent a control arm or other part slightly and caused this problem? There's been no unusual tire wear or other problems.

What might be required to get this adjustability back? I'm thinking it may be time to replace the shocks and springs in the not too distant future.

[JH03S2K]

In post #3 is that the correct UK alignment?

[raymo19]

In post #3 is that the correct UK alignment?

Yes.

[jimmynumbers]

Dumb ?, and i am sorry in advance. What is the diffrence in the UK specs and the US specs? Why would there be a diffrence? I don't track the car but i do drive fast and love going around corners fast. Would changing to the UK specs be worth it? Does this wear the tires more? Thank you.

I have the UK specs and I don't notice any difference in tire wear.

[Jasonoff]

I ran UK spec for a while and didn't notice any different in tire wear either.

I do now though :lol:

This was my last set of rear street tires... :D

http://jasonoff.iroque.com/WornKumhoSPT.jpg

[DaveL]

Here's an earlier thread on the UK alignment ... just for the reading of it ... http://forums.s2kca.com/showthread.php?t=20365

[JH03S2K]

Yes.


Thanks

[Brad_H]

I ran UK spec for a while and didn't notice any different in tire wear either.

I do now though :lol:

This was my last set of rear street tires... :D

http://jasonoff.iroque.com/WornKumhoSPT.jpg

How many miles on that set? Having the cords showing is never good, but it looks like you've at least gotten down to the wear bars across the entire surface. I had a "performance alignment" on a WRX in the past that wore the inside shoulder down to the cords but left ~3/8's to the wear bars on the outside. I was pissed.

[Jasonoff]

How many miles on that set? Having the cords showing is never good, but it looks like you've at least gotten down to the wear bars across the entire surface. I had a "performance alignment" on a WRX in the past that wore the inside shoulder down to the cords but left ~3/8's to the wear bars on the outside. I was pissed.There were quite a few miles with the UK spec. Not sure how many were with the race alignment I have now.

Ya I was surprised the cords were showing lol. With the alignment I have now I keep a close eye on my tire wear although I don't drive it often on the street anymore since it's pretty much track only.

[An2ny]

There were quite a few miles with the UK spec. Not sure how many were with the race alignment I have now.

Ya I was surprised the cords were showing lol. With the alignment I have now I keep a close eye on my tire wear although I don't drive it often on the street anymore since it's pretty much track only.

Was that driving on the track or the highway? Do you drive with those tires to the track? Do you have different suspension or springs?

[Jasonoff]

Was that driving on the track or the highway? Do you drive with those tires to the track? Do you have different suspension or springs? Those are my street only tires. Those tires saw mostly highway with the UK spec alignment when the S2000 was my daily driver.

At the moment I drive to the track on my r-compound tires.

I am running buddy club race spec coil overs.

[An2ny]

^ Ok..that makes sence!

[Jasonoff]

Don't forget the type of driving and tire compound really determines the wear as well.

Take a look at my rear RE050A tires. 90% street on with the race alignment.

They're pretty much even simply because you tend to take a lot of corners on the street. If it was all hwy the inside would probably be close to the cords.

http://jasonoff.iroque.com/RE050AWear1.JPG

http://jasonoff.iroque.com/RE050AWear2.JPG

http://jasonoff.iroque.com/RE050AWear3.JPG