Dead battery again

[SondraS2k]

I replaced my battery last summer, when it died. No problems until a few weeks ago, when the battery died the first time. I jump started it and it seemed to be okay for a while, until I came back out and found a dead battery again yesterday.

I checked carefully: no lights were left on, no doors left ajar. I have a V1, but it is wired to the ignition and is unpowered when the car is off. I have the same aftermarket stereo system I've had for 18 months.

Any ideas what is suddenly and inexplicably drawing current?

[kwando]

There has to be something drawing power to kill the battery. You can unplug your battery if you don't plan on driving it for a few weeks. But I prefer a battery tender. I'm too lazy to set my headuniy settings.

[SondraS2k]

There has to be something drawing power to kill the battery. You can unplug your battery if you don't plan on driving it for a few weeks. But I prefer a battery tender. I'm too lazy to set my headuniy settings.

I was considering a battery tender too, but I was really hoping to figure out what the problem was. I'll do that if I have to though.

[Ulrich]

Take the car to Sears for a battery replacement, get a free new windshield at the same time!

Maybe Tom should consider that following the Shiner drive. :)

[Skakum]

I replaced my battery last summer, when it died. No problems until a few weeks ago, when the battery died the first time. I jump started it and it seemed to be okay for a while, until I came back out and found a dead battery again yesterday.

I checked carefully: no lights were left on, no doors left ajar. I have a V1, but it is wired to the ignition and is unpowered when the car is off. I have the same aftermarket stereo system I've had for 18 months.

Any ideas what is suddenly and inexplicably drawing current?

Sounds like your alternator is not putting out the correct power (14.4 V) or it's simply just not working anymore. Batteries that die pretty regularly are usually caused by alternators.

If you have a volt meter it's pretty easy to check what's going on. When the car is off, you should read 12V +/- on the battery terminals. When the car is on, it should read 14v +/- off of the cables connecting to the battery. You can always grab the terminal (+) off of the alternator (Usually has the boot on it) and test to see if any current is getting pumped out with the car on.

If it's not pumping out 14V+, the alternator is bad and needs to be replaced. If you buy one for Autozone/Oreilys, make SURE to test it after you put it in. Those alternators are not tested and I have installed some that put out 18V+ straight out of the box... For all of you who doesn't know what that does, think boom with acid under the hood :(

[Jasonoff]

Before you do anything suggested verify there is no current draw when the vehicle is off.

If you or anyone has a multimeter connect it in series with the negative terminal of the battery and see how much current is being requested with the vehicle off.

Electrical problems can be a nightmare but you can eliminate a lot of scenarios with a few simple tests.

It's probably the alternator like suggested above but just testing the voltage while the car is running is generally not enough to verify if the alternator is charging the battery properly since the battery can charge properly at 13V like it does on a smart charger. The amount of current in the charge is what determines how quickly it charges.

[My_yella_s2k]

From Honda's website....

Measuring Parasitic Current Draw

Parasitic current draw: Think of it as the price we
pay for all of that high-tech car stuff we’ve grown
so accustomed to. It’s the low but constant draw
of current on the battery caused by the memory
registers in ECM/PCMs, radios, clocks, security
systems, multiplex and most control systems.
Normally, this current draw is so small that you
need to measure it in milliamps (one
thousandth of an amp). Newer models draw
between 3 mA and 13 mA, but older models can
draw as much as 50 mA. And a current draw of
more than 50 mA can discharge the battery.
If you drive the vehicle daily, parasitic current
draw really isn’t an issue; the charging system
does its job and juices up the battery. But it can
become a problem if you let the vehicle sit for a
long time, especially if the battery was partially
discharged when you parked the vehicle, or the
parasitic current draw was high. Left unchecked,
the current draw on the battery can drain it to the
point where the engine doesn’t start.
If you have a weak or drained battery after the
vehicle’s been sitting for a while, here’s a simple
procedure to measure the amount of parasitic
current draw:
1. Make sure all switches are turned off, then
remove the ignition key. Wait at least 5
minutes for all current reduction timers to
turn off (sleep mode).
2. Loosen (but don’t remove) the negative
battery cable.
3. Set your ammeter to the 10A scale if it doesn’t
have an auto-range capability.
4. Use an alligator clip to connect your
ammeter’s positive lead to the negative battery
terminal.
5. Hold the ammeter’s negative lead firmly
against the negative battery post.
6. Slide the negative battery terminal over your
ammeter’s negative lead, and read the current
draw. If your ammeter’s range is too high to
accurately read milliamps, lower the range so
you can.
To isolate the parasitic current draw to a single
circuit, remove fuses in the circuit one at a time
until the current draw drops. Refer to the
appropriate ETM to identify the components on
the circuit. Unplug components one at a time to
find the cause of the high parasitic current draw.
For more info on alternators and parasitic current
draw, refer to S/B 92-001, Charging System
Testing, found under Electrical, and to the article
“Parasitic Draw Test Clarifications” in the March
’92 issue of ServiceNews.

[Chris S]

If you have an Escort 8500 instead of that dated V1, you'd have a voltage meter! :poke: :D

[repiv]

It's possible you just got another bum battery, however, follow the suggestions already given. A battery tender is a good idea if you leave the car unused for more than a couple of weeks at a time. If you don't and drive it more often than that, a good battery should be able to hold charge for at least that long. Do you actually drive it on a regular basis or is it parked for the "winter". If you only start it and not drive it for any length of time, this can put a significant drain on the battery that cannot be replenished with such limited operation.

1. Check for any abnormal current draw when completely keyed OFF. You may have a short or bad accessory.
2. Check fluid level in all cells. If very low, that may be the problem. Top up with distilled water. If level is OK, after you attempt to charge it back up, check specific gravity of each cell using a battery tester. It will tell you if each cell is "in the green" (good).
3. Check the resting voltage after it has sat overnight. It should be over 12 volts. If not, then it's either not holding a charge or not taking a charge. Go to step 4.
4. Try to get the engine started and with it running, check the volts again. It should be over 14 volts. If not, your charging system is not working right. It could be the alternator or it could be the electrical load detector (kind of like and associated with voltage regulator).

[Skakum]

It's probably the alternator like suggested above but just testing the voltage while the car is running is generally not enough to verify if the alternator is charging the battery properly since the battery can charge properly at 13V like it does on a smart charger. The amount of current in the charge is what determines how quickly it charges.

This is actually not true. Because DC is a series type electrical system, regardless of where you get your readings and the variances, the voltage and current will always be the same at the end of the circuit. It's not possible to be at the end of a DC circuit and have differences in volts and current. At least that's what I was taught with that whole Kirchoff's law mumbo jumbo. It IS possible for a battery to charge on 13V but it's pretty rare, at least in my findings.

Repiv's suggestions are right on. If your battery levels are low, especially with just 1 year old, it's highly likely the battery is deffective. You shouldn't be dropping levels like that in less than a year but water does cover that problem. However, bad alternators do make battery fluid levels leak as well due to bad voltages.

It's usually one thing; power being drawn with the car off, battery defectiveness or alternator. Good luck!

[Jasonoff]

This is actually not true. Because DC is a series type electrical system, regardless of where you get your readings and the variances, the voltage and current will always be the same at the end of the circuit. It's not possible to be at the end of a DC circuit and have differences in volts and current. At least that's what I was taught with that whole Kirchoff's law mumbo jumbo. It IS possible for a battery to charge on 13V but it's pretty rare, at least in my findings.:think: What is not true? Voltage is like pressure and current is like flow. If the source is a constant you can take from one to add to another. In this case the source is a chemical reaction and not a constant.

Smart chargers, charge about about 13.6V. The amount of currnet they have available will determine how quickly they can charge your battery. IE a 2A smart charger will charge your batter slower than a 5A.

[Skakum]

:think: What is not true? Voltage is like pressure and current is like flow. If the source is a constant you can take from one to add to another. In this case the source is a chemical reaction and not a constant.

Smart chargers, charge about about 13.6V. The amount of currnet they have available will determine how quickly they can charge your battery. IE a 2A smart charger will charge your batter slower than a 5A.

You were saying that you can have differences in Voltages and Currents in a DC circuit. I'm saying yes at some points in the circuit you will have different readings but at the end of the circuit, the voltage and current will be the same. Meaning, no matter where you get the readings, you wont end up with 14V and inequal current to match those 14 volts.

For example we will use letters to describe what happens. A will be the source and the rest of the letters (B-F) will be components in the circuit. So imagine A is the battery and various components of the car will represent B-F. Since it's series, all of them are connected to each other.

"A source having voltage equal to A is connected in a circuit with five passive components having voltage differences B , C , D , E , and F across them. The voltages across the passive components add together arithmetically because they are connected in series. According to the Second Law, the total voltage across the set of passive components is always equal and opposite to the source voltage. Therefore, the sum of the voltage differences across all the circuit elements (including the source) is always zero."

[Skakum]

I'm guessing that you are saying that power can be changed due to resistance (ohms)? That fits more of your analogy than current to voltage...

[hecash]

Sondra,

There are a ton of Autozone stores in your area. They test battery, alternator and parasitic draw for free. Just go to their website, look up battery test and then locate a store with their locater service.

I use the Honda battery tender from King Motorsports. My battery is on that all winter while the car is in storage. It's really neat. I got the attachment where you just plug it into the power outlet in the console and it does the job like a champ.

Honda Battery Tender (http://www.kingmotorsports.com/category.aspx?cat=74)

[repiv]

I use the Honda battery tender from King Motorsports. My battery is on that all winter while the car is in storage. It's really neat. I got the attachment where you just plug it into the power outlet in the console and it does the job like a champ.

Honda Battery Tender (http://www.kingmotorsports.com/category.aspx?cat=74)

Harry, I've got one that looks awfully familiar:

http://inlinethumb49.webshots.com/20336/2568792280025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2568792280025981935VESsNE)

I rigged mine with the plug, too. Great minds think alike.
http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/45224/2476507490025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2476507490025981935UyILoo)

:D

Did you do the wiring swap between the accessory socket and the trunk popper? Normally, the accessory plug is keyed to the first ON position. With the key off, no juice comes out and no juice goes in.

[Jasonoff]

You were saying that you can have differences in Voltages and Currents in a DC circuit.Maybe you misread what I typed? You're just explaining simple electronics and I'm not sure what it has to do with the alternator charging the battery based soely on how much voltage the alternator is putting out. Yes the voltage is important but it can vary.

Just verifying the (14.4V) alternator output you suggested is not a concrete troubleshooting step as the rectified alternator output voltage can vary due to a number of factors.

Maybe you should have a read through this site. http://www.aa1car.com/library/charging_checks.htm

The alternator output is AC and it is not a constant. You can have an high voltage (14.4V) low current alternator that will slowly charge your battery when the vehicle is running. If you only make short trips this can cause your battery to never fully charge which actually does happen in some vehicles causing the battery to die often.

If the OP has a current draw source while the vehicle is off and never takes long enough trips for the OE spec alternator to fully charge the battery over time it will eventually die. Same can be said if the vehicle is sitting for long periods of time with a contionous current draw on the battery.

Anyway... there's enough info in this thread. If you want to continue this chat maybe we should take it offline :)

[repiv]

I just remembered I did a little test some time ago on this. It's in my "Tip of the Day #2" .................................................. .

http://forums.s2kca.com/showthread.php?t=26917&highlight=battery

[Jasonoff]

LOL good ole trusty DT9208 :D

[repiv]

LOL good ole trusty DT9208 :D

Yeah, it's the second one I've owned. The first one, I got to try and hack it up to use the display for a diff temp monitoring device, but I couldn't resolve how to extend the bloody ribbon cable on the readout long enough to do the job. It's a nice unit but too dang big.

[Jasonoff]

I lost mine. Ended up with a auto sensing unit now.

It's pretty slick.

[SondraS2k]

It was so dead that I couldn't even jumpstart the car. The battery is now at Sears being tested. Argh!

[repiv]

It was so dead that I couldn't even jumpstart the car. The battery is now at Sears being tested. Argh!

That's kinda weird. I've jump started a car with no battery in it at all, so a completely dead battery shouldn't matter. You may have something far more serious going on than just a battery issue.

[S2Kouichi]

Just for reference, can you identify the make and model of this battery?

[hecash]

Did you do the wiring swap between the accessory socket and the trunk popper? Normally, the accessory plug is keyed to the first ON position. With the key off, no juice comes out and no juice goes in.

Geez, Dave, I think that is the same thing. At least, it looks like it from the outside and from the connectors.

No, I did not switch the wires in the console because I don't plug it in there. I installed a pair of outlets into the dash on the passenger side tied into constant power lugs on the fuse block. I wanted to be able to run my inverter to power my laptop without having the ignition key on and to be able to charge my phone in the same way at the same time.

Here is a pic of them from when I was installing my shift beeper.]

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=viewimage&img=355779

[repiv]

Harry, that is so cool. I have just acquired a dual plug myself and will be installing it this spring. I plan to power my GPS and possibly my cellphone cradle. I currently use the stock plug, but I find that with the Garmin speaker integrated into the power plug, I can't hear it very well when the sound is coming from that direction.

On a stock car, the accessory plug works only when the key is ON. The trunk popper is powered all the time. Those thinking to use the accessory plug for a battery tender will have to switch the wiring around or the juice won't get in with the key off.

[hecash]

Harry, that is so cool. I have just acquired a dual plug myself and will be installing it this spring. I plan to power my GPS and possibly my cellphone cradle. I currently use the stock plug, but I find that with the Garmin speaker integrated into the power plug, I can't hear it very well when the sound is coming from that direction.

On a stock car, the accessory plug works only when the key is ON. The trunk popper is powered all the time. Those thinking to use the accessory plug for a battery tender will have to switch the wiring around or the juice won't get in with the key off.

Thanks, Dave. After I got the beeper working properly, I did go back to tidy up the install of it, and the outlet wiring. I did not take a picture.

I did not know that bit of info about the console outlet. It's good that I was too lazy to twist around to try it. I just flipped up the rubber cover on the new dash outlet and put it in there. Thanks.

[desmo4]

All suggestions above are good. If you want to measure the real charge voltage you will have to do it at the battery since there is a voltage drop at every connection, no matter how perfect it is. If you can't jump start the car the battery has probably failed in a open circuit state. This is unusual but not impossible. You need to get a new battery and a DVM or better a clampon dc meter if you want to fix it yourself. Be cautious putting a DVM in series with a battery terminal. The spike at the time of the connection might blow up the circuitry in the meter since most aren't rated for very high amperage. With the car running you should see 14 volts or more. With it off you should see a few milliamps for radio presets, alarm, door locks etc. I would also suggest pulling the fuses of all the accessories before you start testing and add them back one at a time once the DVM is connected.

Jonathan