battery maintenance?

[Bones]

Hello all
I didn't find anything here about this. I wash washing my car a couple weeks ago and ran down the battery listening to the radio. I got a jump and drove around--no problems until today which is about 12 days later. It wouldn't start. Got a jump, fine.

Anyway, it is a Panasonic battery says made for Honda or Honda approved and it has a little gauge with colors to assess condition (which by the way were all black if I was looking at the right spot). I just tested the voltage and it reads 12 volts. There is a filler cap for distilled water. I didn't look hard for a fill line but the cap reaches down pretty far and was mostly dry. Could low water be a factor? :shrug: Do any of you ever check the water level in your battery? I saw a mechanic do it for my old Saab once but I never really even think about it.

Thanks



by the way, are there new smilies? I don't recognize a few. :hamsandwich:

[bimdub]

you can top it off with distilled water, but even then it may not last long or even help.....worth a try though.......there is a line....its on the side of the battery.....the top reverse groove.......

[repiv]

1. How old is the battery? The Panasonic battery is the stock battery that came with the car. The average lifespan is about 3 years, but some have reported them lasting as long as 7 years and as short as 1 year.
2. After you got it started, how long did you drive it around? If it was drained to the point that it would not start on its own, you may have needed to drive around for more than 1/2 hr.

which by the way were all black if I was looking at the right spot
There is only one spot that is a round transparent window. There should also be a legend on the label to show you what that spot should look like and what it means.

which is about 12 days later
12 days is a very long time for the car to sit idle in light of the fact that you ran the battery down to the point it would not start it and then likely didn't drive it long enough to bring the charge right back up.

it reads 12 volts
12 V is not optimum, but OK.

There is a filler cap for distilled water
There should be 6 filler caps. I think you are looking at the wrong thing. Don't put water down there.

Could low water be a factor?
Low water "could" be a factor, but you have not ascertained that this is the problem yet. The Panasonic battery has a translucent case. If you put a flash light to it, you should see the level of each cell (there's 6) through the plastic casing.

Do any of you ever check the water level in your battery?
Yes, regularly. Even though most modern day batteries are "maintenance free", it may still be necessary to top up with distilled water from time to time.

I don't have the Panasonic battery in my car any more but I will use the stock battery out of our Honda Fit as a demo:

http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/41833/2100480920025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2100480920025981935HJIcmb)

See the label with the little circles and the dot in the middle and the "window"? The Panasonic battery has something very similar. That's what you should be looking at to check. This is an indication of the battery fluid's "specific gravity" and the label and window simply interprets this to tell you of the battery's condition.
Look at the mid-line of the battery and you will see those little round discs with the "cross hatches" on them. Those are the caps which you unscrew using a large Philips screwdriver. That's where you put the water. Fill to the bottom of the filler neck in each cell till the water touches the neck and just forms a "meniscus". The Panasonic battery might have those round disc caps covered with a label (I can't remember now). If you need to top up, you'll have to peel that label off. Do a visual check by looking through the side of the casing first before you decide you need to top up. As long as the fluid is between the high and low lines, leave it alone. You may just need to drive it a bit longer to bring it up to full charge. However, if the battery is getting too old, you can't leave it sit for too many days. If you must park it that long, install a "smart charger", something like the "Battery Tender" to keep the battery in good shape.

I am presently putting together some pictures to do a write up on how to check your battery and your charging system's condition. I should have it written up and posted sometime tomorrow in this forum.

[bimdub]

my bad I assume that people have mechanical abilities....what Repiv said is right on the money

[desmo4]

Ordinary flooded electrolyte batteries cannot deal with even one complete discharge. H2S04 and lead will immediately start reacting and change to lead sulfide, an unrecoverable reaction and the longer the battery is flat the more lead sulfide will be created. Until it can't charged at all. This can happen to a battery of any age. The only battery which will tolerate this kind of treatment is an Optima, which will recover to 90% charge after 400 deep discharges. And now that Optima has perfected the D51 which is the smallest Optima it is perfect. It is lighter than the stock battery too.

Jonathan

[repiv]

I always dislike getting into explanations that are too complicated as they tend to confuse more people than they help, however, in this case, further clarification is in order to avoid misleading readers with only partially accurate facts.

Sulfuric acid and lead are in constant contact in a typical car battery. It is during discharge that Lead Sulfate (PbSO4) is produced. This reaction is completely reversible so long as the components of each side of the reaction is not depleted too drastically, as in the case of a completely (or almost completely) discharged battery. The ability to bring back a "dead" battery is dependent upon the rate at which the chemical reaction is reversed (ie, slow charge or quick charge - slow charge being the preferred method).
In the process of producing electricity in a typical car battery, we have the following oxidation/reduction reactions:

At the negative terminal or Anode (oxidation): solid Lead (Pb) + aqueous Sulfuric Acid (H2SO4-) + H2O <----> solid Lead sulfate (PbSO4) + (H3O+) + (2e-)

At the positive terminal or Cathode (reduction): PbO2 + (3H3O+) + (H2SO4-) + (2e-) <----> PbSO4 + 5H2O

The " <----> " indicates that these reactions go both ways. In one direction, electricity is released (discharge). In the opposite direction, electricity is put back in (charging). Over time (discharging and charging) sulfuric acid depletes from converted to water and as the water is lost through escape as vapour or as hydrogen and oxygen gas, there isn't enough components left to reverse the chemical reaction. That's when we add water. However, some sulfur is also lost via deposits outside of the aqueous environment of the battery, usually in the form of solid deposits that cannot be returned to the chemical mix. That's when more sulfuric acid is needed. Additionally, over time, the lead component of the battery also depletes to the point where there isn't enough to reverse the reaction. That's when the plates must be replaced.
Very rarely do we see a car battery that is "completely" discharged. Even in cases where a battery has been drained to the point where it will no longer crank and start a car engine, that battery can be "brought back" with slow charging and in many cases, with fast charging (typical of driving a car after starting it from a boost).

[desmo4]

I always dislike getting into explanations that are too complicated as they tend to confuse more people than they help, however, in this case, further clarification is in order to avoid misleading readers with only partially accurate facts.

Sulfuric acid and lead are in constant contact in a typical car battery. It is during discharge that Lead Sulfate (PbSO4) is produced. This reaction is completely reversible so long as the components of each side of the reaction is not depleted too drastically, as in the case of a completely (or almost completely) discharged battery. The ability to bring back a "dead" battery is dependent upon the rate at which the chemical reaction is reversed (ie, slow charge or quick charge - slow charge being the preferred method).
In the process of producing electricity in a typical car battery, we have the following oxidation/reduction reactions:

At the negative terminal or Anode (oxidation): solid Lead (Pb) + aqueous Sulfuric Acid (H2SO4-) + H2O <----> solid Lead sulfate (PbSO4) + (H3O+) + (2e-)

At the positive terminal or Cathode (reduction): PbO2 + (3H3O+) + (H2SO4-) + (2e-) <----> PbSO4 + 5H2O

The " <----> " indicates that these reactions go both ways. In one direction, electricity is released (discharge). In the opposite direction, electricity is put back in (charging). Over time (discharging and charging) sulfuric acid depletes from converted to water and as the water is lost through escape as vapour or as hydrogen and oxygen gas, there isn't enough components left to reverse the chemical reaction. That's when we add water. However, some sulfur is also lost via deposits outside of the aqueous environment of the battery, usually in the form of solid deposits that cannot be returned to the chemical mix. That's when more sulfuric acid is needed. Additionally, over time, the lead component of the battery also depletes to the point where there isn't enough to reverse the reaction. That's when the plates must be replaced.
Very rarely do we see a car battery that is "completely" discharged. Even in cases where a battery has been drained to the point where it will no longer crank and start a car engine, that battery can be "brought back" with slow charging and in many cases, with fast charging (typical of driving a car after starting it from a boost).

All that is true if the battery has a charge. My statement was in reference to the completely discharged battery at the start of this thread. And I say again, If the battery is completely discharged just one time and depending on how long it is left discharged will determine how much lead sulfide is created. The longer it stays discharged the less likely it will recover.

Jonathan

[Bones]

Wow! You guys really came through with the answers! Awesome :thumbup:
The little window with the color coded cap is not showing any colors at all. I read around different sites and thought maybe there was something that needed to float inside it and that my water level was too low to allow the floating thing to reach the top. The picture of the Fit shows the colors very clearly! I see nothing, not even a red dot indicating charging is necessary. I unscrewed that clear cap with a quarter and looked inside: The plates are fully submerged but barely. I had trouble reading the fill line but maybe when it's dark my flashlight will have more of an impact. I thought that was the filling spot so I'm glad I waited for some answers. If I need to fill, I'll do so at under the Phillips caps. And I think you're right, all but one is under a sticker.

By it not starting again 12 days later I meant to say that after the first time it died, I had no problems for the next 12 days of driving and then without any warning it wouldn't start again after sitting for about a 1/2 hour. Maybe I left something on?

Anyway, I was reading around online and it is a bit confusing, yes. Edmunds had a "Shocking Expose" (their words) of car batteries which explained it a bit but I'm not a scientist. I understand that if the water was so low that the plates were exposed a bit, that would be problematic, presumably because they wouldn't become charged as fully since they weren't immersed in the electrolyte. But if the water is just low, is it correct that the electrolyte would be too concentrated?

Over time (discharging and charging) sulfuric acid depletes from converted to water and as the water is lost through escape as vapour or as hydrogen and oxygen gas, there isn't enough components left to reverse the chemical reaction. That's when we add water. However, some sulfur is also lost via deposits outside of the aqueous environment of the battery, usually in the form of solid deposits that cannot be returned to the chemical mix. That's when more sulfuric acid is needed. Additionally, over time, the lead component of the battery also depletes to the point where there isn't enough to reverse the reaction. That's when the plates must be replaced.

So do we just replace the water to ensure that the plates are fully immersed and thus able to max out their effect or is it that the electrolyte does not become more concentrated/effective as water is lost and it must be at a specific gravity to react correctly. What I mean is, (forgive my layman's explanation/understanding) you can only dissolve (?) so much of the acid into the water and reducing the amount of the water only reduces total electrolyte, ie, it doesn't become more concentrated/potent. And with less of the solution, there will be less of that component and thus a smaller/less powerful reaction which means less of a charge. Am I close? Or does it have more to do with the "specific gravity" in which case don't bother going any further because I'm too far removed from chemistry.

Ultimately, it looks like my battery is 4.5 years old now. I have a portable jumpstart thing in the trunk and now I know I'll likely need to get a new one sometime soon.

One really dumb followup--(Repiv, you might want to put this in your tutorial when you finish it): as a layperson, my only experience with battery acid really is seeing it leak from the AA's of forgotten toys. That is usually a thick, rust colored stuff. So I'd always assumed that battery acid was a thick, rust colored stuff. I'm guessing it is actually sulfite and melted battery casing. my question: is the sulfuric acid in fact the clear liquid in the battery that looks just like water? So, I don't want to touch the clear liquid because it's not just water floating on top of gloppy acid somewhere below? I didn't touch it but I thought about it. Yes, it's coming back to me that acid solution is clear. Going into to 9th grade science where I first and last experimented with acid (you know what I mean) I thought it would react more like the movie Alien where the alien fluids ate through the metal floor like hot water melts snow.

Thanks to all of you!

______________
2004 silver

[bimdub]

yeah only thing I can say here......that liquid in your battery....is not user friendly........even though you add distilled water to it......it is acid!

also
Repiv....on your batter write up......I noticed you made no mention of the ''overcharge'' not seen that one yet? I had a nasty experience with it......the car would boil the battery dry every few days.....and I seemed to replace bulbs....more often......turned out after doing some testing the Alternator was putting out 18 volts......and lucky for me it was a regulator fault and the regulator was easily replaceable.....

[repiv]

But if the water is just low, is it correct that the electrolyte would be too concentrated?
One really dumb followup--(Repiv, you might want to put this in your tutorial when you finish it): as a layperson, my only experience with battery acid really is seeing it leak from the AA's of forgotten toys. That is usually a thick, rust colored stuff. So I'd always assumed that battery acid was a thick, rust colored stuff. I'm guessing it is actually sulfite and melted battery casing. my question: is the sulfuric acid in fact the clear liquid in the battery that looks just like water? So, I don't want to touch the clear liquid because it's not just water floating on top of gloppy acid somewhere below?

Re: electrolyte being too concentrated ................. Not quite. If you look at the equations I put up above, you will see that the sulfuric acid is converted to sulfates and water. The sulfates become a solid which can collect on the plates above the fluid level and the water, of course, can disappear by vapour escape, evaporation and loss of hydrogen and oxygen gas. When the water is depleted, so is the concentration of the acid. That's how the change in specific gravity shows up in the "tester" window. So no, the acid doesn't get more concentrated as the water disappears. The sulfates do not contribute to the pH (or acidity) of the fluid till it is converted back to H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) when the battery is charged.

Yes, the fluid in a car battery is SULFERIC ACID solution and is extremely harmful. It is not quite the same sort of acid you would find in a dry cell battery (the kind in toys). I didn't mention about the dangers of it since I figured most people knew that. Maybe I should mention it. Most batteries state this hazard on the label.

[repiv]

Repiv....on your batter write up......I noticed you made no mention of the ''overcharge'' not seen that one yet? I had a nasty experience with it......the car would boil the battery dry every few days.....and I seemed to replace bulbs....more often......turned out after doing some testing the Alternator was putting out 18 volts......and lucky for me it was a regulator fault and the regulator was easily replaceable.....

I guess I should mention something about that, too. Most modern day cars have enough safeguards like our Electric Load Detectors and reliable voltage regulators, that a battery don't generally get overcharged anymore. However, it is possible to overcharge a battery using a "quick charger" that doesn't have overcharge protection circuitry built in.
Basically, you can't convert the sulfates back to acid at a rate faster than it can handle. If you try and there are no safeguards, you can boil the fluid very easily and lose the water.

[repiv]

BTW, for those who haven't seen it yet, here's the link to that battery thread of mine:

http://forums.s2kca.com/showthread.php?t=26917