Diff/axle play?

[wildncrazy]

I was under my car and noticed that there was quite a bit of play in the axle as it entered the diff. is that normal?

If so how much would be considered normal? I haven't measured it but it appears that i have between 1/16" to 1/8" play.

It is completely tight at the wheel end and that's what I expected to find at the diff end.

[repiv]

Which direction is this play are you concerned about? In and out of the diff? Up and down and front and back while in the diff? Rotational play? Each plane has some play and you need to specify which.
In and out, 1/16" is not unusual. This play is regulated by the amount of movement of the retaining circlip in the groove at the end of the output shaft.
Up/down and front/back play should be almost non-existent and far less than 1/16". Rotational play would be about 1/8" or so and this is determined by the spacing between ring and pinion teeth.

[wildncrazy]

It wiggles where the axle meets the diff. Up and down, not in and out.

You can't rotate it or move it in or out because it has a very firm attachment to the wheel end.

[repiv]

It wiggles where the axle meets the diff. Up and down, not in and out.

You can't rotate it or move it in or out because it has a very firm attachment to the wheel end.

You may have a bit too much play then. That movement is a function of the amount of slop in the LSD end cap bearings. I'm not saying that this is of immediate concern, however, if this play continues to increase over time, further investigation will be required.
Insofar as the in and out play, this is irrelevent to the fact that the other end is firmly attached. Both CV joints allows a lot of movement on that plane. If there was no circlip on the end of the output shaft or if the circlip groove is worn badly, the output shaft can be pulled out of the diff by more than an inch.

[desmo4]

When I found the amount of play you have found, I drove the car about 10000 more miles before it was fixed. At that time there was powder inside the LSD. I would recommend you get a Quaffe lsd, a new propeller shaft and new drive shafts when you decide to make the repair. Because if you just replace the LSD you will find slop in the drive train and repeat a lot of the labor which was done when the diff was out which was not obvious when the lsd was bad.

ps it cheaper labor wise to buy the drive shafts and prop shaft new, than to replace the CV joints.

Jonathan.

[wildncrazy]

Could a hit on the wheel have caused this?

I got backed into just recently and my car was squeezed between the trailer hitch and the curb with all the force going into the wheels

[repiv]

Could a hit on the wheel have caused this?

I got backed into just recently and my car was squeezed between the trailer hitch and the curb with all the force going into the wheels

Possible but extremely unlikely. Like I said earlier, the half shafts have about an inch or two of compression play per side due to the CV buckets. If those got compressed to that extent, your suspension arms would have pushed in the frame and you've got way more serious problems. That kind of play in the output shaft would be caused by clutch dumps, high rpm rapid shifting and/or extremely high drive loads. The end cap retainer bolts may be stretching. That's why Comptech came out with their reinforced end caps and bolts.

[desmo4]

The play in mine started at about 75000 miles so it could be just fair wear and tear.

Jonathan

[repiv]

The play in mine started at about 75000 miles so it could be just fair wear and tear.

Jonathan

Or, it could just be this.

[wildncrazy]

Well the dealer is saying the problem is the bearings.

I was in looking at a CR and got to talking about the diff issue and the salesman said he didn't think there should be anywhere near that much play. He got a mechanic and we put it on a lift and wiggled it around a bit. He said it was way too much play.

Long story short is that it is being covered under warranty. I should have it back today or tomorrow.

They didn't say a thing about the coilovers.

[repiv]

Well the dealer is saying the problem is the bearings.
We're talking about the LSD bearings, right? The ones that the output shafts go through?

[wildncrazy]

That's what I am guessing. Whatever holds the axle in place in the diff. The axles move vertically at least 1/8".

I went by to look at my baby and they hadn't started yet. I'd left them with my valet key and my wheel lock key was in the trunk so they couldn't get the tires off. Now they'll start for real.

[bimdub]

I have brought a similar issue....almost exactly the same thing to my dealers attention, and they rolled a brand new one onto the lift (they did not have a spec for this and had never seen under one before) it also had what seemed like a lot of play in it....up and down.....that was well over 20,000 miles ago and the problem is not any worse for me.......I looked at the pics in the shop manual and do not believe the diff carrier bearings support the output shafts, they are locked into place by the snap ring for sure, but they are loose in the differential, a way to verify this would be to remove the cover and see if the actual diff has play up and down? the bearings are from the carrier to the differential only, what we need is PuddyDad to get in here on this as he has seen more of these diffs than I can shake a stick at! come to think of it there is a very noticeable amount of play in my BMW's output shafts too......I should also check the Subaru however the BMW has a diff with only a few thousand miles on it?

[repiv]

Bimdub may be correct in his assessment. It may be the output shaft bores in the LSD that actually supports the shafts. The shafts may simply run through the bearings without exerting much pressure on the bearings themselves. However, since the circlip on the end of each shaft is slightly larger in diameter than the bore itself, under certain conditions of load (both in forward and reverse rotation), the shafts could exert pressure on the interior of those bearings. Here's a couple of pictures that I took when I did my rear diff:

http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/41903/2155177650025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2155177650025981935ThAXUL)

http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/15624/2503349600025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2503349600025981935xRlAeN)

http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/42639/2768471140025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2768471140025981935tlSoYA)

Unfortunately, I never installed the output shafts when the cover was off so I can't add much to this particular issue. If there is a lot of movement in the "up and down" plane, one would think that you would also see the exact same sort of play in the fore and aft plane since this movement could be attributed to movement in the bearing, which might indicate that the end cap bolts have been over-stressed and stretched, making for end cap looseness. In a fix like this, hopefully, the shop will look to see if the bores have been damaged and also to use brand new end cap bolts, preferably of a harder material like what Comptech used to sell.
Comptech sold the "re-inforced" rear diff end caps and bolts to address a similar issue.

[wildncrazy]

I never meant to imply the motion was only up and down, that was simply the easiest way to apply the force. The movement is fore and aft as well.

In other words there is about 1/8" of play in all directions except in and out.

[wildncrazy]

Interesting tidbit.

They still haven't tracked down exactly what is causing the play in the rear end, but they have determined a lot of things that aren't.

When they put the car up on a lift and put it in 4th gear and accelerate lightly at about 40 mph the car feels like it would vibrate off the lift.

They can see the axles are straight and true, the rims aren't bent and the connection at the wheel end is good. They start going into the diff tomorrow.

Because it's an insurance claim and the repair process is "open ended" on the repair center's part (his words) if they've got to replace the diff they'll do that.

I wonder if I can buy the old diff for a cheap price?

[wildncrazy]

Interesting, they are replacing the left rear axle assembly today since the left side had more play than the right side.

I'll be interested to see if that fixes it. I'll bet it doesn't

[desmo4]

I never meant to imply the motion was only up and down, that was simply the easiest way to apply the force. The movement is fore and aft as well.

In other words there is about 1/8" of play in all directions except in and out.

Do you mean rotational play of 1/8"? If so it is probably the lsd and cv joints on the half shafts. If the motion is for and aft or up and down, then the diff housing is also damaged. Only serious destructive driving could have caused the latter.

Jonathan

[bimdub]

ok again, go under any front wheel drive or independent RWD that uses snap rings to hold the inner joint in place and give it a wiggle.....they almost always have some play....I gotta get some video of this.....I was completely assured by Honda that I was not in any danger of failure or experiencing anything abnormal, I was even shown this on a brand new S2000.....I also need to mention that the dealer I went to loves warranty work! they jumped right into a cylinder head replacement.....taking Honda to the cleaners in the process! if there was anything wrong with my rear diff they would have replaced it.....

[wildncrazy]

This play is more than normal. It was caused by the compression of a Chevy dually on one wheel and the curb on the other.

[wildncrazy]

I'm not believing it, but that fixed it. Just as smooth as new.

I haven't gotten under the car yet to see exactly what pieces are new. The service tech said axle assembly but the bill said Part # 6237002 Driveshaf $604.80 and #6241137 Protector $10.18.

I'm thinking the Driveshaf is a typo.

I didn't pay for it so I don't really care what it cost.