'07 Civic Si ruined engine

[griffon]

My son has a Civic Si with just 30,000 miles on it. Saturday he was taking his fiancee and kids to a wedding and pulled up to a stop sign and the engine quit with a pop. It would not restart or even turn over.

Since he has an extended as well as the original warrany he called Honda Service and they found him a wrecker and had the car towed to the dealership he purchased it from in April of '07, Zimmerman's of Rock Island, Illinois.

As soon as Zimmerman's had the car the service adviser kept telling my son that it would not be warranty. For example he said he suspected the clutch, which is a normal wear part. He seemed determined to find that Honda would not have to pay. Both my son and his fiancee were treated rudely as well.

Now today they informed him that according to the onboard computer the engine had been over-revved to 9700 RPM and that they had notified American Honda, who denied the warranty claim because they said the engine had been subject to abuse. The # 3 piston is broken. I guess it is shattered. They want $8500 to repair it. I would imagine that is probably more than 1/2 what the car is worth.

Now the little I know about those computers tells me that they record the highest RPM during the life of the car, not the most recent. When my son purchased the car it had ~80 miles on it and the over-rev could have occurred before he purchased it. I have purchased 4 cars at this dealership since 2001 and tried out others and they always just hand me the keys. They have no idea how I am drivng their cars.

I do know that if this is how they are handling their service and warranty at this point I should be looking for a different dealer.

Also I would think that 9700 would not be enough to break a piston. I would expect bent valves from floating, maybe. But not a broken piston.

What do you think? Has anyone had any experience along these lines

[Hawkeye]

Get a lawyer asap.

[repiv]

I can't say how the ECU stores this sort of information. As far as a "broken" piston, have they taken the engine apart? Otherwise, how did they arrive at this conclusion? What's the redline on an Si? If it's 8K, then 1700 rpm over is quite a good bit over. A valve float can produce bent valves and valvetrain damage but it can also produce piston damage when the valve gets slammed into by the top of the piston. It is conceivable that a hole can be punched in the top of the piston.
As far as other people's experiences with this, it might be better to post this in the General Car Talk section.

[griffon]

I can't say how the ECU stores this sort of information. As far as a "broken" piston, have they taken the engine apart? Otherwise, how did they arrive at this conclusion? What's the redline on an Si? If it's 8K, then 1700 rpm over is quite a good bit over. A valve float can produce bent valves and valvetrain damage but it can also produce piston damage when the valve gets slammed into by the top of the piston. It is conceivable that a hole can be punched in the top of the piston.
As far as other people's experiences with this, it might be better to post this in the General Car Talk section.

They have the engine apart. The piston is in quite a few pieces.

Mods, please move this thread to the General Car Talk forum as XVIPER suggests.

Thanks.

[whitemike711]

I agree. if the computer can not give a date of when that rev was they can't prove it was him. I would also cause a big scene on the sales floor on saturday when they are the busiest. Dealerships or should i say Stealerships don't ever want to own up to a warranty issue.

Also do you have full coverage insurance? if so they would most likely total the car. If so have your son buy a new one from a diffrent stealership. You should aslo mention that you are part of a huge club and have influnce on future purchases.

[Chris S]

Wow, that sucks! Good luck getting it resolved satisfactorily, hopefully AHM will do the right thing.

How did your son like his Civic Si before the engine failed? A couple of friends have bought them in the last month, and I'm very impressed. I'd love to be able to figure out how to squeeze one in my garage!

[griffon]

Wow, that sucks! Good luck getting it resolved satisfactorily, hopefully AHM will do the right thing.

How did your son like his Civic Si before the engine failed? A couple of friends have bought them in the last month, and I'm very impressed. I'd love to be able to figure out how to squeeze one in my garage!

I think he was a lot more impressed before this happened. He treated the car pretty good. I'm sure he never over revved it. 30k is pretty short engine life.

I'd think long and hard before buying one now.

[griffon]

I agree. if the computer can not give a date of when that rev was they can't prove it was him. I would also cause a big scene on the sales floor on saturday when they are the busiest. Dealerships or should i say Stealerships don't ever want to own up to a warranty issue.

Also do you have full coverage insurance? if so they would most likely total the car. If so have your son buy a new one from a diffrent stealership. You should aslo mention that you are part of a huge club and have influnce on future purchases.

He has full coverage insurance. How does the insurance company end up paying for this??

It would be great if they would.

[My_yella_s2k]

My son has a Civic Si with just 30,000 miles on it. Saturday he was taking his fiancee and kids to a wedding and pulled up to a stop sign and the engine quit with a pop. It would not restart or even turn over.

Since he has an extended as well as the original warrany he called Honda Service and they found him a wrecker and had the car towed to the dealership he purchased it from in April of '07, Zimmerman's of Rock Island, Illinois.

As soon as Zimmerman's had the car the service adviser kept telling my son that it would not be warranty. For example he said he suspected the clutch, which is a normal wear part. He seemed determined to find that Honda would not have to pay. Both my son and his fiancee were treated rudely as well.

Now today they informed him that according to the onboard computer the engine had been over-revved to 9700 RPM and that they had notified American Honda, who denied the warranty claim because they said the engine had been subject to abuse. The # 3 piston is broken. I guess it is shattered. They want $8500 to repair it. I would imagine that is probably more than 1/2 what the car is worth.

Now the little I know about those computers tells me that they record the highest RPM during the life of the car, not the most recent. When my son purchased the car it had ~80 miles on it and the over-rev could have occurred before he purchased it. I have purchased 4 cars at this dealership since 2001 and tried out others and they always just hand me the keys. They have no idea how I am drivng their cars.

I do know that if this is how they are handling their service and warranty at this point I should be looking for a different dealer.

Also I would think that 9700 would not be enough to break a piston. I would expect bent valves from floating, maybe. But not a broken piston.

What do you think? Has anyone had any experience along these lines
Being that Ive worked at both Acura and Honda, and done numberous motors on civics rsxs and the like, there is a code that stores an overrev code.
i forget the code off hand but that code will give you everything you need from engine rpm, vss, outside temp, eng temp, time and date etc etc.

call up AHM
see if they can do anything for you, tell em you have had numberous new and used hondas and will consider another carline if something doesnt happen
ask for "goodwill" assistance.
sometimes honda will give u the parts warranty, and labor is on you, or split everything 50/50.... or sometimes take full 100 on warranty.
good luck man

[Slambo]

Wow 9700 RPM, that gauge only goes to 9K in my Si, and the only way I have ever heard of you getting it to over rev is by let say driving down the freeeway at 80MPH then shifting it into 2nd gear and popping the clutch. This inturn would probally happen instantly and you would lock the tires up I would think. You cant over rev these cars w/o the throttle shutting off., hell for that matter the car even has a built in rev limiter when the cars not moving so you cant peel out alot, it kicks in at like 5000 or 5500 RPM.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd30/Slambog/Si-RPM.jpg

[My_yella_s2k]

also, did they give you the code number?

[whitemike711]

As for insurance, i would rather not mention anything online or have anything written down, but you get the idea.

[My_yella_s2k]

http://forums.s2kca.com/showthread.php?t=22340&highlight=mechanical

should be dtc p0219 - mechanical overrev BUT I cannot find anything in Hondas site for that code relating to your car.......

[bimdub]

I am wondering how he would have gotten it that high? mechanical over rev? because the limiter would have stopped it long before.....

dtc p0219 is generic code for OBD2 engine overspeed condition so I am struggling to reason how they came up with the 9700 number, it could have been 8250 and set the same same code.

[billy bob]

I wonder, do insurance companies even offer non-collision vehicle related damage (besides flooding)?

It seems ridiculous to me that it would cover everything else, but if an engine blows up, your screwed.

[griffon]

http://forums.s2kca.com/showthread.php?t=22340&highlight=mechanical

should be dtc p0219 - mechanical overrev BUT I cannot find anything in Hondas site for that code relating to your car.......

According to the Service Manager at Zimmerman's, The over rev could have occured " last week, last month or last year". That's what got me thinking about the fact that the car had miles on it when purchased.

[S2k Dude]

It amazes me that, on an S2000 board, how many people don't understand how a rev limiter works.

I'm not casting blame but if this happened within the first 80 miles I seriously doubt the engine would have lasted another 29,020 miles. Also, if the computer records all the other sensor data (including date & time) and the event didn't occur within the first 80 miles, then Honda would have a pretty good case against warranty coverage. Personally, I'd like see the onboard (OBD-II) data read. Your best bet, as mentioned earlier, is to call AHM and open a case #. From there, asking for "goodwill" assistance is your best hope.

[Slambo]

Wow you just call us all stupid!

It amazes me that, on an S2000 board, how many people don't understand how a rev limiter works.

I'm not casting blame but if this happened within the first 80 miles I seriously doubt the engine would have lasted another 29,020 miles. Also, if the computer records all the other sensor data (including date & time) and the event didn't occur within the first 80 miles, then Honda would have a pretty good case against warranty coverage. Personally, I'd like see the onboard (OBD-II) data read. Your best bet, as mentioned earlier, is to call AHM and open a case #. From there, asking for "goodwill" assistance is your best hope.

[repiv]

I think S2k Dude is merely surprised that when there's been a 1700 rpm over redline incident, that there is still talk of "rev limiters", which is an "electronic" measure. To achieve this amount of over-rev, there has to be a "mechanical" event.

[griffon]

It amazes me that, on an S2000 board, how many people don't understand how a rev limiter works.

I'm not casting blame but if this happened within the first 80 miles I seriously doubt the engine would have lasted another 29,020 miles. Also, if the computer records all the other sensor data (including date & time) and the event didn't occur within the first 80 miles, then Honda would have a pretty good case against warranty coverage. Personally, I'd like see the onboard (OBD-II) data read. Your best bet, as mentioned earlier, is to call AHM and open a case #. From there, asking for "goodwill" assistance is your best hope.

The computer does not tag the over rev with a date or time. Therefore the event that caused piston failure could be entirely separate from it if no damage occurred from the overspeed.

But as soon as the code was observed they quit looking for another cause.

The computer in my S2000 gave me several codes at once last summer. When I had the dealer look at it they could find no cause, but put it down to "glitches". Could not a similar glitch give an erroneous over rev read??

[billy bob]

... if this happened within the first 80 miles I seriously doubt the engine would have lasted another 29,020 miles.
Your saying that a 1700 rpm over rev is so catastrophic that the engine can barely survive? That is completely ridiculous.

[Hawkeye]

It amazes me that, on an S2000 board, how many people don't understand how a rev limiter works.

I'm not casting blame but if this happened within the first 80 miles I seriously doubt the engine would have lasted another 29,020 miles. Also, if the computer records all the other sensor data (including date & time) and the event didn't occur within the first 80 miles, then Honda would have a pretty good case against warranty coverage. Personally, I'd like see the onboard (OBD-II) data read. Your best bet, as mentioned earlier, is to call AHM and open a case #. From there, asking for "goodwill" assistance is your best hope.

I doubt that the engine damage (if due to an overrev) occurred during the first 80 miles.

But, it is possible. Honda, as nearly all manufacturers, stresses proper break in procedure. If that break in procedure wasn't followed correctly (including test drives before the final owner took delivery) it could be argued that the damage began during the early part of the break in and that is why the engine only lasted 30k miles. I believe that that argument would have legs in front of a jury. And that's all you'd need to win a lawsuit.

A brand new, tight engine with no miles. A cold night and a eager test driver blasts the engine all the way to redline on a cold engine. A valve spring could have easily fatigued in this case with stress cracks. That valve spring eventually failed a year or so later. Quite plausible.

[c-zap]

I had a car that was out of warranty and suffered burned valves in the #2 piston while on vacation last year. Granted it's not the same engine problem but AHM did cover 90% of the repair. I hope your repairs have a similar outcome.

Best of luck Griffon.

[billy bob]

A brand new, tight engine with no miles. A cold night and a eager test driver blasts the engine all the way to redline on a cold engine. A valve spring could have easily fatigued in this case with stress cracks. That valve spring eventually failed a year or so later. Quite plausible.

I don't agree with this either. It goes against statistical averages. There are millions of honda's out there and you can very safely assume they are driven completely out of spec by hordes of clueless people that dont observe break in, warm up, or oil replacement cycles. If the engines were not uber robust then failures would be commonplace.

[Chris S]

A friend recently blew his Cayman S engine. The car has a harness bar, fire extinguissher, GT3 seats, big brakes, lots of track specific mods and hard track use. Porsche had a replacement engine Fed Ex'd to the dealer, no hassle!

[billy bob]

A friend recently blew his Cayman S engine. The car has a harness bar, fire extinguissher, GT3 seats, big brakes, lots of track specific mods and hard track use. Porsche had a replacement engine Fed Ex'd to the dealer, no hassle!

Hey, I sat in that guys car, it was nice! Yea, the Porsche engine policy DEFINITELY makes up for their higher sticker....

[rioyellows2k]

On a cold engine the current Gen Civic Si's revs are limited to 7K, unless of course you're in third gear at 7K and put in in first or something.

I've seen a few "Over-Rev" cases and it's always been a new Cylinder head from valve float. This is the first time I've heard of piston damage. Unless the car's been wounded and it's limped to this final outcome.

I don't think a lot of people understand the Dealership and Warranty company relationship either.

The Warranty company is the one holding the purse strings. The Dealer can do NOTHING if the warranty company doesn't authorize it.

Dealerships are SALES, PARTS and SERVICE. NOT Sales, parts, service, WARRANTY.

AHM is the Warranty company. If a mechanical failure is not conclusive then the call is AHM's not the dealership's.

It's in every dealer's best interest to help you. If Honda denies the claim - NO ONE GETS PAID. They want to fix the car, even at a lower rate on a $8500 repair, that's still a lot of money they can collect from AHM. The claim is denied and you take it to a shadetree mechanic, badmouthing AHM and the dealership - how is that beneficial to them?

You may have been treated rudely because the advisor sees a car that's assumed to have been abused and the failure is the cause of it - and you want it waranteed. Not calling you out, just telling you what it looks like.

You don't know what it's like to do this for a living. Get a phone call in the morning. "Yeah I just backed into my fence and cracked my bumper, is that covered under warranty?" We have a customer who owns a yellow S2000. He drives without his airbox lid on, is seen street racing everywhere, and it's in the shop for a trannies, diffs, a new head - and he wants it covered under warranty. Again, not saying this is your scenario, but this is common place on vehicles like civic Si's. We've had owners admit to ever revving and they still want it warranteed "The car should be made to handle it" ...."It only happened a few times".... You can burn up all your good will on people who abuse their cars.

Good will claims are usually the Lady in the Odyssey that gets all her service done at the dealer, has a good service relationship with their advisor, and something happens that is not usually covered or she's just barely outside of her mileage limits.

You'll probably get a goodwill on this one, just call AHM and yell at them, tell them how many miles were on the car at delivery and that may be what saves you.

Good Luck

[whitemike711]

As for insurance, i would rather not mention anything online or have anything written down, but you get the idea.

I don't know about you guys, but i still like my idea :thumbup:

[griffon]

The final word came down from American Honda Motors yesterday. There will be no help from Honda on the $8500 repair bill on the engine in my son's '07 Si.

[JonBoy]

Bummer. That said, I can't say I blame them. Mechanical overrev is hardly their fault and that's a heck of a repair bill...

[parkerdt]

Ouch. did you have any luck with the insurance company?

Dave

[bimdub]

You don't know what it's like to do this for a living. Get a phone call in the morning. "Yeah I just backed into my fence and cracked my bumper, is that covered under warranty?" We have a customer who owns a yellow S2000. He drives without his airbox lid on, is seen street racing everywhere, and it's in the shop for a trannies, diffs, a new head - and he wants it covered under warranty. Again, not saying this is your scenario, but this is common place on vehicles like civic Si's. We've had owners admit to ever revving and they still want it warranteed "The car should be made to handle it" ...."It only happened a few times".... You can burn up all your good will on people who abuse their cars.

so driving without the airbox lid, or even worse a cold air kit is automatically a sign of abuse? no really, warning to all, I have it from my dealership that he has in fact seen warranty's denied for everything from a cold air kit (carb approved even) to strut tower braces, aftermarket mufflers, even aftermarket wheels, and yes I nearly had my own warranty denied for a K and N drop in replacement air filter.....yup.....the drop in replacement.....go figure.....I have tried to get the factory paper air filters but our "stealership" wanted (get this) $65 for one.....so I chose to save my money and get the K and N for only $45, and since there is NO OTHER PLACE that sells a paper replacement in my area (they can order one.....for over $30) I figured that I would be ok.

well not so, I actually had to contact K and N and inform them that my warranty was about to be denied, they did contact Honda about it. I wonder if just having a membership to this club is enough to deny a warranty? personally I have honestly never been treated near as badly in any dealership as the ones I have taken me S2000 to, I did buy a Honda Civic from one in California that would probably be considered to be better than average, but that was then.

yeah you want service with a smile, and minimal questions? I have owned several new cars and I gotta be honest I had better warranty service on my Hyundai Accent (rip) than with any Honda dealership. and our current Subaru has seen many odd trips to the dealership without any question as to warranty......oddly enough they never try to sell me anything either.......when the first thing I got hit with on taking my Honda in was EVERYTHING.......even after I told him that everything was current except the battery......he offered rear diff service, coolant service, brake fluid service, transmission service......literally anything he could get me to pay for!

http://forums.s2kca.com/showthread.php?t=24423
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc16/bimdub/Picture001.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc16/bimdub/Picture002.jpg

personally I was insulted.....I myself worked in the engine diagnostic field for years, and could not believe the pressured sales tactic! I ought to have let them service the rear diff so they could put the wrong fluid in!

no you want the truth......I took my car in for a troubled cam lobe......they went to do a valve adjustment and did not even notice the lobe! of course the valve adjustment was no help.....and then they proceeded to tear the head apart.....thinking the valve guides were the problem.....well after all was torn down they still had not noticed the lobe! WTF! they ended up replacing the entire head compliments of AHM and then still charged me $230 for misc stuff that was not even broke down so I could see what the hell I was paying for......or why I was getting charged for anything? and to insult me even further....just yesterday not even 50 miles of diving on the new head I notice that the cam cover is leaking oil......BADLY......all over my nice and just before I took it in detailed engine compartment! I also noticed that even though they did claim to change my oil (not the synthetic I had just put in less than 500 miles prior) they most certainly did not change the filter! which bothers me because I know the cam was chewed up and sending metal debris all through the engine......I doubt they even considered the possibility that when they took the head off they could have gotten "crap" into the oil or coolant passages.....and since they never noticed the cam lobe.....I would suspect in my case I might as well have taken the car to a backyard mechanic!

yep its a rant! but hey I really am bothered by that $230 and as for AHM.....well except for the K and N issue they did fine in my book......the dealer however? you decide....kinda makes you wodner if they put the old cams back in? :think:

[Slambo]

I recently had my 3rd Gear Syncro replaced in my 07 Si since hey had a TSB on it. My Si has a Fujita SRI and they still had no issue with my intermintant 3rd gear issues. I was really suprised. Sorry there not gonna fix your car that just has to sux :rolleye2:

[Goku]

If there is a TSB on a issue then its hard for them to denied a clam. No matter how you have modded your car. But its sad but true. All you guys I feel for. After working in the dealership world for 8yrs now, I see this stuff everyday. But because so many people will try anything to get the dealership to pay for it. If people were honest this wouldn't be a problem, but with people skirting the system, or just flat out lying about how something happened, what is the dealership to do...

[rioyellows2k]

Snag a Superior engine in the JDM FD2. I bet it costs you less. But there's plenty of Totalled Civic Si's with K20's around.

Have you considered trading it in on another one?

[12Bravo]

It was my Si with the shattered piston. rioyelows2k, you mean putting a used engine in my car now and trying to trade it in?

[rioyellows2k]

No, trade it in dead. I'm betting you come out better than the $8500 the engine would cost you.

[griffon]

We are installing a "new" used engine in the car this week. There must be some weakness in this engine because according to the suppliers the market is pretty brisk in these.

Honda has refused to help out at all.

Now they are also now refusing to fix the "slipping out of third gear" issue that was a pre-existing condition from day one and they have now published a Technical Service Bulletin on.

I will never buy anything that says Honda on it again.:thumbdown:

[billy bob]

Sue them in small claims court. TWICE. It works. It doesn't cost much and you don't need a lawyer. Have them served and get a jury trial. Just present your case to the jury, that's IF they send a lawyer, they probably wont. Then sue them again for wasting your time. They wont send a lawyer again. Then get another lawyer to sue them to collect for the two judgments. You'll get your engine money and then some.....

[sickyap1honda]

i work for honda and what happend is the tech who looked at your car is trying to get out of warranty work,i would say he hooked up the hds(honda daig system)and looked at the freeze frame data with snapshot history of when the dtc was set,basicly this will tell the mechanic how fast he was going and how many rpms the car was at at the time of the dtc,you can ask for a printout of this snapshot data to make sure they are'nt screwing you over,however if the do give you a print out the truth will come out ,id ask your son if was ripping on the car or not,i see these problems on missed shifts w/s2000's and alot of si's,if all else fails,try another honda dealer sometimes they will goodwill parts if you pay for labor.if he did not do the freezeframe snapshot data on his daig,disconect the batt to clear the pcm and take it to a differnt honda dealer,yo might get lucky:tumble:

[S2k Dude]

That is too bad to hear but Honda does have proof the engine saw 9700 RPM (1700 RPM over max), without that they wouldn't have much to stand on. And yes, I would have to agree with Honda that the over rev most likely happened recently and not 29,920 miles earlier. There have been many cases of S2000's that didn't fail immediately after an over-rev but they also didn't last more than a few thousand miles after the damage occurred. I guess the real question is can enough "minor" damage occur in the first 80 miles to allow the car to go another 30k miles before a catastrophic failure to occur. I'm no expert (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night :)) but I'd have to say it's unlikely.

This got me thinking, if I were to buy a new car that had XX miles on it or even a used car, it would be a good idea to have the dealer scan and document the OBD-II and see what the is max RPM the engine has seen.

I would have liked to have seen Honda cover some of the repairs but I think these types of failures have become all too common and these days every company is trying to reduce any unnecessary warranty repairs to help their bottom line.