Newbie With Problem- Plz Help!

[04s2000]

Hey everyone, newbie to the club! I have a silver 2004 with 30k on her, and she's a bit sick & I need help....I'm having trouble finding a place that can figure it out....I havent been able to drive her in a week and Im having major withdrawal issues :) After extended driving (30+ minutes) after I come to a stop and start again in first gear, there is (at worst) a severe pop,pop,pop,pop or (not quite as bad) a griding coming from the rear end. The clutch feels strong, and the transmission shifts smoothly....Ive only had the car for 6k miles, but it was perfect when I bought it, and I have absolutely babied her.....Ive taken it to my local fix everything guy (Terry at Acme Auto Electric) and his buddy at Mr. Transmission, and they couldnt figure it out......then I bent over and took her to Swope world. They happily took my $50 to drive around the block and say everything is fine......frustrated at this point, and dont want to make what may be a small problem worse and ruin my rear-end, (if its not on its way out already :( ...........who do you guys recommend I take it to that knows the S-twizzle?? Thanks for the help, sorry so long!!

[chris2002]

Don't really know myself, never had the problem. When was the last time the transmission and the transaxel fluids were changed?

I the the transaxel as a preventive when I bought mine with 34,000. I also changed the transmission oil, manual says not needed but it smoothed out the sounds coming from the gearbox and made shifts very smooth.

This is DIY and a search can show you how easy it is.

[C G]

Is it coming from a wheel area or near the diff?

Hang in there a little while and Xviper or someone will be along to help. There's a very common problem that this sounds like. I'm not well enough versed in the fix to guide you but someone will.

[04s2000]

Transmission was fluid changed when I got the car w/24k miles, and I had the transaxel fluid changed 300 miles ago......but the problem was happending before and after the fluid was changed, and it didnt help. They used the OEM fluid too.....where would you guys take your ride?? Im definitely not mechanical enough to know how to fix/diagnose this myself....any local shop recommendations would be very appreciated!!

[04s2000]

Im pretty sure its an axle or rear end type issue. I would think if it was a sticking brake pad there would be more brake dust?? and that would not be dependent on if I had been driving for a while or not....but that was another thought I had that I the shops ruled out....

[yellow2k]

While it may be expensive and not always the "best" mechanic you can't go to far wrong at a good dealer.

[My_yella_s2k]

May be better if this is in XVipers Den......
more exposure

[04s2000]

Yeah I agree, they should be the experts at their own product you would think...... but Swope was no help, they said its fine. They supposedly had one of their "master techs" check her out, but couldnt find anything wrong.....which blows my mind.....Im more than happy to pay the price to get her fixed, I just cant find anyone who can figure it out! Anyone have experience with Neil Huffman??

[pezjunki]

I have not had any experience with any dealers, locally. Moving to XVipers den... He may know the problem better.

[repiv]

After extended driving (30+ minutes) after I come to a stop and start again in first gear, there is (at worst) a severe pop,pop,pop,pop or (not quite as bad) a griding coming from the rear end.
Sounds are some of the most difficult to convey in print. A mechanical sound like what you describe should usually be accompanied by something you can feel also. You state that you drive for 30+ minutes, stop, start again in 1st to get this noise and grinding, But you need to tell more. Can you repeat this again and again during the same drive? What happens if you take off in reverse? Have you tried a mild take off in 2nd from a stop? What happens?

Transmission was fluid changed when I got the car w/24k miles, and I had the transaxel fluid changed 300 miles ago......but the problem was happending before and after the fluid was changed, and it didnt help. They used the OEM fluid too.....where would you guys take your ride?? Im definitely not mechanical enough to know how to fix/diagnose this myself....any local shop recommendations would be very appreciated!!
You say the trans fluid was changed. Then you say the transaxle fluid was changed. These two are one in the same. What exactly was changed? You say OEM fluid was used. But what exactly might that be. If you changed the transmission fluid, then this would have been Honda MTF. If you changed the rear differential fluid, there is NO OEM rear diff fluid for this car. So what exactly was put in there? Some dealer have mistakenly put in VTM-4 fluid into the S2000 diff. If they did this before you got the car, it may have taken till now to blow the diff. If you did it again with the same wrong fluid, then this would have altered nothing. The rear diff would still be damaged.

The only things I can think of in the back end of the car that would make the sort of noises you're talking about (and I'm using a lot of flexibility in my interpretation of your description), are loose or missing propshaft bolts, bad CV joints, bad LSD in the rear diff. If this was coming from your tranny, you should likely feel it through the shifter knob when it's happening. Do you?
Incidentally, have you eliminated the obvious like checking for loose or missing lugnuts? Wheel weights that may be coming unstuck? How's the tire pressures? Anything embedded in the treads? How are the wheel bearings? Even if the lugnuts are OK, does the whole rim/tire assembly sit tight when you jack it up barely off the ground and give it a good yank back and forth at the top and at the sides?

[04s2000]

Thanks for the help!

Yes the sounds are accompanied by feelings, when it is the "pop pop pop pop" or "rub rub rub" sound there is definitely a thumping/rubbing feel that goes with it. When it is just more of a "grinding" type sound the feeling is more of "friction".

It seems to be a problem associated with driving at highway speeds for an extended time, and makes me think it is related to something warming up and not doing its job properly. Once I am off the highway and drive at lower speeds for a while it will get somewhat better, but still not 100%. If I just drive it around town on shorter errands, it doesnt really do this any of this. It will also make the bad noises/feels if go in reverse if fresh off the highway. I have not tried a second gear start though. It is repeatable, but only when very fresh off an extended higher speed drive.

Sorry for using the different words....I was told when I bought the car that all the fluids in the car were changed, but I dont know what was put in it. I then had it changed again just very recently to see if that would help, and again dont know exactly what was put in it, but was told it was whatever Honda recommends, I wish I knew!

Is the rear diff sensitive enough that the wrong oil could cause it to go out in 5k driving? When they go bad is it usually a gradual breakdown like this could be, or more of a catastrophic event?

I have ruled out the wheel and brake type issues. Shift knob moves smoothly when shifting, but I can feel the rub/pop/grind through the shifter when in gear and the problem happens, and I do hear a little more of the gearbox whirring noises when this stuff is going on too.

I do think I know when this very first started and I hurt something, maybe this will provide a clue. I was getting on the highway and having a bit of fun, 70% throttle, shifting slow and smooth around 6-7k rpm, being very smooth, wound her out to about ~90mph in a 65mph zone, on a fairly tight turn for a highway, I think I did hold it in 4th or 5th for maybe 15 seconds, then shifted to 6th, slowed down to legal speeds, and drove about another hour on the highway normally. When I got off the freeway and started again from a stop in 1st, this was the first time I heard the noise.

Please let me know what you are thinking, and any other questions that may help you out, and I will try my best to be accurate with my descriptions......Thanks again for the help!

[repiv]

Is the rear diff sensitive enough that the wrong oil could cause it to go out in 5k driving? When they go bad is it usually a gradual breakdown like this could be, or more of a catastrophic event? *

I have ruled out the wheel and brake type issues. Shift knob moves smoothly when shifting, but I can feel the rub/pop/grind through the shifter when in gear and the problem happens, and I do hear a little more of the gearbox whirring noises when this stuff is going on too. **

I do think I know when this very first started and I hurt something, maybe this will provide a clue. I was getting on the highway and having a bit of fun, 70% throttle, shifting slow and smooth around 6-7k rpm, being very smooth, wound her out to about ~90mph in a 65mph zone, on a fairly tight turn for a highway, I think I did hold it in 4th or 5th for maybe 15 seconds, then shifted to 6th, slowed down to legal speeds, and drove about another hour on the highway normally. When I got off the freeway and started again from a stop in 1st, this was the first time I heard the noise. ***

Please let me know what you are thinking, and any other questions that may help you out, and I will try my best to be accurate with my descriptions......Thanks again for the help!

* It has been documented that putting in the wrong fluid into the rear diff can damage it within a couple of weeks. Sometimes it takes many weeks to months. Depends on how you drive. Dumping the fluid and examining it and the drain bolt magnet might give some insight to what's happening.

** You can't yet rule out wheel bearing. A bad wheel bearing would act up after it is heated up, but this is generally associated with a whine that changes pitch with road speed. However, a severely damaged wheel bearing can still make the kinds of sounds you've described. If it is a wheel bearing, when it's making the noise, you should stop with a minimal use of brakes, go out and carefully feel the central hub area to see if there is a difference in temperature from right side to left side. The bad side will be very hot and much hotter than the other side.

*** This kind of driving would not normally do any harm to the car. It was built for this UNLESS something was already damaged to begin with.

I think you should still consider something is wrong with the rear diff. At the least, check the fluid level and the smell of the fluid. It should be right at the bottom of the fill plug hole and if you stick your finger in the hole and can wet it with fluid, it should smell strongly of sulfer. A sulfer smell would indicate that the correct fluid is likely in it.
You can also inspect the propshaft bolts and propshaft play. For this, you must jack the car up and see how much movement there is in the shaft when you try to rotate it with the tranny in gear and the ebrake pulled. While it's jacked up, you can also rotate one of the wheels with tranny in neutral and ebrake off. If you've got damage pinion or ring gear teeth, you should be able to feel something weird as you turn the tire one rotation. Then turn the other tire.

[C G]

Two things, both slightly off topic.

Xviper, I can't tell you how glad I am you are making your home with us at S2Kca.

04s2000, you really sound like someone who would be an excellent fit in this club and on our forums in general. I hope you'll give some thought to joining. You can certainly hang around even if you don't join but members do have more fun...

[04s2000]

I do plan on joining for sure, this site is awesome, seems like there is a strong local club here in the Ville as well, and the help and quick responses are very appreciated!

OK.....should have thought of this before......I went and looked at the garage floor and there is an oil stain that corresponds to the inside of the rear passenger-side wheel....this is where I had sometimes thought the issue was......would that be the wheel bearing??

I will be a very happy guy if I dont have to rebuild the rear!!

Thanks mucho!

[repiv]

I do plan on joining for sure, this site is awesome, seems like there is a strong local club here in the Ville as well, and the help and quick responses are very appreciated!

OK.....should have thought of this before......I went and looked at the garage floor and there is an oil stain that corresponds to the inside of the rear passenger-side wheel....this is where I had sometimes thought the issue was......would that be the wheel bearing??

I will be a very happy guy if I dont have to rebuild the rear!!

Thanks mucho!
It's possible, although our wheel bearings have very little grease in them as they are a sealed unit. However, if it is damaged, what grease there is can fall out. You should see evidence of grease on the inside of the rim. Did you do the test I talked about for bad wheel bearings? Also, does the sound change if you turn one direction as opposed to the other? Putting weight and unweighting a bad wheel bearing will alter the sound of the noise coming from it.
What color is the oil stain and exactly where is it on the floor relative to what part of the car? Dead center with the rear axle might indicate wheel bearing. Off-center might indicate brake fluid. How's the brakes work? How's the brake fluid level? Further could indicate one of the grease boots on one of the suspension components may be cracked and leaking the grease. Try to pinpoint what is above the stain.

Xviper, I can't tell you how glad I am you are making your home with us at S2Kca.

Thanks. You're very kind. I do what I can and sometimes, it a big guessing game to try and solve a problem.

[RugRunner]

Yeah I agree, they should be the experts at their own product you would think...... but Swope was no help, they said its fine. They supposedly had one of their "master techs" check her out, but couldnt find anything wrong.....which blows my mind.....Im more than happy to pay the price to get her fixed, I just cant find anyone who can figure it out! Anyone have experience with Neil Huffman??


Hi, I'm Kyle and I just got on this forum tonight. I picked up an s2 last weekend. Neil Huffman took really good care of me. I had an issue with a bad motor in my sunroof that was just barely out of warranty, they called Honda and did a "goodwill" accomodation. Fixed the entire thing, motor, labor, diagnostic (almost 400 bucks worth) and no cost to me. If you haven't already sorted your issue out, give them a call. I worked with Rod Gray who works in service. Let him know Kyle with the silver s2000 sent you--they really did help me out. Good luck!

[04s2000]

Thanks for the response! I may be headed over there if Swope doesnt come through today.....

[04s2000]

The leak is not towards the center, it is right around where the inside of the passenger side tire would be parked....the floor is a bit dirty so its kind of hard to tell exactly the color, but the oil appears to be a lighter color. The area it covers is approx 2"x8", and the amount of oil leaked I think would have been pretty small, likely small drips over time that covered this little area.

As far as I can tell the brakes work perfectly.

Isnt the grease they pack into those boots a thicker, dark color??

[repiv]

Usually, ball joint grease is dark, but I've used stuff that's a golden color. You're going to have to have it looked at more closely. It could be bearing or outer CV joint.

[04s2000]

Quick update.....after 3 shops & 2 weeks of deprivation.....no one could pinpoint the problem. The Honda dealership is pretty confident the problem is in the lsd, but short of replacing it, they had no answers. They replaced the fluid again (which I just had done <500 miles ago) and miraculously the car feels the tightest since I have had it.....so knock on wood it stays this way & no permanent damage was done!

All I can think (since the problem was happening before and after the first fluid change) is that the original fluid had a major breakdown (if this is possible??) and the shop that changed it the first time used an incorrect product which made matters worse.....then when the "good stuff" was put in there, it made the lsd happy again......

A bit of an unsolved mystery, but hopefully this thread will help someone else in the future! Thanks again to all for your help!

[repiv]

and the shop that changed it the first time used an incorrect product which made matters worse.....then when the "good stuff" was put in there, it made the lsd happy again......

Though the diff may be "happy"now, unfortunately, incorrect fluid may have caused irreversible damage. Hopefully, the damage is small. It may not fix the damage, but changing the rear diff fluid a couple more times in the next few thousand miles may get the "crud" out.

[desmo4]

If you feel like driving to Virginia I am not working at present and would be glad to look and listen if the problem crops up again.

Jonathan

[04s2000]

Check is in the mail to join the club, I owe you guys big time!

Back again.......drove on the highway for an hour this AM, I can tell its slightly starting to misbehave again, doing the shuddering/popping feeling in the rear end.....I am thinking there is something going on that is causing the rear end fluid to not do its job correctly after being heated up and run for an extended time.

Is there an oil cooler that may not be working properly that could be causing the fluid to breakdown?

It was feeling better than ever after the last fluid change- smooth as silk. Ive put only ~200 very gentle miles on it since then, mostly just driving around town, felt great. Then driving on the highway for an hour today, it starts up again......any new ideas?

Can you think of any other parts that could be working perfectly, then after an hour on the highway, start to do this type of thing? I would think we would rule out the clutch since its not engaged during highway cruising?

I would love to be able to change the fluid once a week to keep her running 100%, but unfortunately thats not in the budget!! Thanks again

[repiv]

If putting in new fluid is a temporary fix, it is starting to look like the LSD is damaged from a previous wrong fluid use. The fluid isn't really breaking down that rapidly. It's just that with the potential damage that there may be, no fluid will be a permanent fix.
There is no diff fluid cooler. The rear diff is finned. That's about the only cooling it gets. I don't think you've ever posted exactly what fluid you've been using. What brand? What viscosity? What type?

You still can't eliminate the wheel bearings. It's usually highway driving that heats those up. City driving is generally too short on each trip to get a bad bearing heated up to the point it makes noise. Have you ever taken the wheel off the side that you found the leak? See if there's any grease or goo coming from the wheel hub area with the wheel off.