cdv help!

[omniruss]

While I had my car up in the air working on my diff, I figured I'd bleed the clutch, and even go so far as take out the clutch delay valve. After a week of down time, my battery went pretty low, and when I tried to roll it over, it didn't sound quite right and seemed to come to a dead stop. The battery charger is on it now, but I'm afraid I might have screwed something up with the clutch and I'm hesitant to roll it over again. Any chance I might have broke something?

[repiv]

How an engine responds to starting with a low battery is no indication of anything except that the battery is low. Of course it won't sound right and if it's low enough, of course it'll just stop. This does not necessarily mean or imply anything else.
Whenever we work on our own cars, there always a risk of breaking something. However, you were working on your rear diff and your CDV. If you have the tranny in neutral before you attempt to crank it, then you have eliminated the work you've done, out of the equation. Once the battery is charged, go ahead and start it. It will run even if you completely botched the diff, clutch bleed and CDV work.
Then comes the test of your work. If you've bled it badly, then the clutch friction point will be out of whack. If this is the case, then getting it into gear will be more difficult. That will be your first clue. If that happens, don't go any further. Turn the engine off and put it either into first or reverse, whichever will NOT send the car into something. Have your ebrake pulled up firmly and your foot brake applied when you fire it up. Now you can see if the friction point is "workable". If not, you need to stop and bleed it again.
If all is well so far, you can then test your diff work, which BTW, you haven't indicated what exactly that was. Go for a careful drive.

[omniruss]

Okay, that's sort of what I figured, just panicked a little and didn't want to really fudge something up :duh: As far as the diff, I just re-installed after having s2kpuddydad work some magic... not too worried about that.

[repiv]

I would not have any worries about the "Puddy" diff. However, think back and make sure all your nuts and bolts were in good shape and torqued correctly. If the output shaft to 1/2 shaft bolts or the propshaft bolts aren't up to spec, you could have problems and thus, the care I spoke of.
Although we don't have the kind of power that a Ford GT has, a friend's GT sheared all the output shaft bolts on one side last year. Could figure out why he was just sitting there revving like crazy and going nowhere.
Hopefully, by now, you've got it up and running.

[omniruss]

Nope, still nothing. Even bought a new battery. What could possibly be wrong? I can wrench the engine back off the compression point, try starting, then it just has such a hard time rolling to the next sticking point. help!

[repiv]

What exactly happens when you turn the key? How about in the first position? Does the radio work? How about if you turn your headlights on?
When you hit the starter, what exactly happens? Do you get any kind of sound? Does the radio interupt and momentarily go off like it normally does when you crank the engine?
Now, let's make sure in the process of bleeding your clutch, you didn't just happen to bugger the clutch/starter interlock. This is one of the little switches at the top of the clutch pedal. Make sure that you didn't have a wire pop off or that you didn't push the switch out of position. You should see that as the clutch reaches the floor, the pedal should push up against the switch. Crawl under with a flashlight and watch as you push on the pedal.
If it does make a noise when you hit the starter button, what kind of noise is it? Is it a single click, then nothing or is it a series of clicks? Or does it actually crank the engine but the engine doesn't fire?
After you turn the key to full ON and once the dash lights do it's self check and go out, are any warning lights left on?
If the battery is up to snuff (check the voltage with a volt meter and you should see at least 12.5V), the starter motor has plenty of oomph to turn the motor even if it's on it's compression stroke.

[omniruss]

Power windows work, my aftercooler motor is running and sounds normal, dash lights are fine, radio works. Radio goes off when I push the start button. Clutch start interlock looks fine, it releases with just a little bit of downward motion on the clutch - not sure about what you mean by "as the clutch reaches the floor, the pedal should push up against the switch" --- the switch is released with downward motion on the clutch, right? The battery, oil and engine light are on before I hit the start button, but I think this is normal? So I hit the start button, and the engine rolls only a little bit, if at all. There is not a series of clicks.... it's a brand new battery, but I even tried jumping my old battery, with the same results. After releasing the start button after 1 second as to not blow anything, the battery and oil light remain on. (I have an OBD reader but it's at work, 20 min drive, I'll get it tonight if I have to.)

[repiv]

Clutch start interlock looks fine, it releases with just a little bit of downward motion on the clutch - not sure about what you mean by "as the clutch reaches the floor, the pedal should push up against the switch" --- the switch is released with downward motion on the clutch, right?
Not quite. You are looking at the cruise control defeat switch. The clutch/starter interlock is at the end of the clutch travel when the pedal is on the floor. There are two switches on the pedal. However, I don't believe this is your problem as you say the engine does try to crank but just not fast enough to fire.
Even though you have a brand new battery, it may only have a "storage" charge. Usually, a battery bought from the store will have enough of a storage charge to crank a motor, but not always. Check the voltage to be sure. Try getting a jump from another car that you know has a good battery.
Even a weak battery will power all the things you've listed. At least you've eliminated other electrical components out of the equation since those things work.
Check your supercharger belt just in case it's slipped off a pulley. Also check the serpentine belt for the same thing.

[omniruss]

It won't jump. Same results. I have the other vehicle running, but the s won't keep rolling.

[repiv]

The only time this ever happened that I know of is when a big rag got pulled into one of the pulleys and this was enough resistence to stop the engine from cranking.
There is a possibility that your starter motor is at fault. If you have a hill handy and you want to risk not getting the car back home, you can try a "bump" start. Roll it down the hill, have it in second, clutch down till you get up enough speed, then turn on the ignition and drop the clutch. It's risky as you may still not start and you have to tow the car home.
At this point, I guess you can try to manually turn the engine using the crank pulley nut. See if it will actually turn most of a turn.

[omniruss]

Don't have a hill, and the crank pulley nut is buried, when I start complaining like that it's time to give up.... aaa is on the way to tow it, how frustating :mad:

[omniruss]

AAA guy suggest I wait till tomorrow morning to tow the car, which I completely understand.... rational sense that I'm losing over this matter. Anyway, his at-a-glance thought is that the engine itself is stuck, or maybe something on drive belts is ceased. He thinks the starter acts/sounds ok, it's trying to roll. Is there any chance that Comptech aftercooler would seep antifreeze into intake plenum while I jacked up the front end? I jacked up the front in 2 steps as I put the car on 4 stands, so it was steep, but not THAT steep. It sat in my garage for a little over a week, and yes, there are rags hanging around while I bleed the clutch, but there isn't one stuck in my drive belts. I had a new s/c tension pulley arm milled which I installed a week before I jacked the car.... everything ran fine then. The s/c belt is not too tight. Also had exhaust off and cat open to atmosphere while I waited for diff rebuild.... any chance condensation could be a culprit? I can't think of much else that would cause the engine to not want to turn.

Eurekas are welcome. I'm out of ideas.

[bimdub]

put the car in 6th gear, and try pushing it forward, better yet have someone push it forward while you observe the engine, make sure it turns around two revolutions (this is nearly the same as turning the engine with the crank nut)

as for coolant seepage, it should not be able to actually leak into the manifold. but if you suspect hydro lock, pull the plugs and try to rotate the engine with the starter, if its hydro lock the fluid will be forced out the plug hole and you will know you have bigger issues.

[repiv]

Bimdub gave me an idea. Pull the plugs anyway and then try to crank and see if it turns. If it does, maybe you did suck up a/c water, but then, you should be able to see if the level in your a/c has dropped significantly. Have you taken a look? A hydrolocked engine would act the way yours is. Would be a good excercise to check coolant level and pull the plugs, then try to crank.
With the plugs out, if the engine still doesn't crank, then something is causing resistance. Start at the front (belts and pulleys) and work to the tranny (it's in neutral, right?). Even if (worst case scenario) everthing back of the tranny is seized, having it neutral will take that out of the equation.

[omniruss]

I took all the spark plugs out and tried starting... no start
Plugs still out, I took the tension off the s/c belt so s/c is free floating.... no start
Plugs still out and s/c belt loose, I took the tension off the drive belt and made sure it was finger loose.... starter rolls very slowly and sounds like it's still fighting a lot of resistance.

So it sounds like I need a new starter??? What would cause this if I haven't driven it for over a week???

[repiv]

So it sounds like I need a new starter???
Now, hold on! Of course, it won't "start". You took the spark plugs out. BUT DID IT CRANK? That's what we're trying to get at. From one scenario to the next, was the cranking any different?
Eg. With just the plugs out, did it sound and do the same thing that it did with the plugs out and the S/C belt out of the equation? And how did this compare to when the plugs are out, S/C belt loose and serpentine belt loose?
BTW, how did you manage to have the serpentine belt loose and hit the starter button? Did you have a second person?
You could have a weak starter motor but then, something in the engine may have seized up. Did you look down each sparkplug hole with a flashlight to check if anything is weird?

I think you need the think back to the clutch bleed and CDV work. What else did you do or touch? Does the clutch pedal even "feel" like it has the normal pressure and is the travel like it was before? Did you by any chance yank or push on the release fork and took it out of it's holder, then shoved it back in wrong so that it's jambed up against something it shouldn't be touching? Doing a clutch bleed or removing the slave cylinder should not have required messing with the release fork, but sometimes, we do stuff we shouldn't do.

[omniruss]

Sorry, replace 'start' with crank.' I realize nothing will fire with all these things disconnected. Conciseness is the key! So what I noticed is that the starter seemed to crank only slightly more (it still came to a complete stop) after plugs were removed & s/c belt loosened, but when I loosened the drive belt, I could hear the starter actually cranking, albeit rough and slow, whereas with a taut drive/serpentine belt, it might crank only a little bit then stop entirely. While the belt was loose I allowed the starter to crank for only a couple/three seconds before I released the start button because it was obviously drawing a lot of current.

btw I used a bit of a hack to pull the tension arm away from the drive belt before I pressed the start button. Not sure if I'm ready to explain how I did it because I realize the dangers involved.

So, at this point I cannot conclude that the engine will not roll over because it's seized - the first problem to resolve is what's wrong with the starter - I am convinced of that much, if you think otherwise I'll entertain any ideas you have. When I get home from work this evening I plan to start disassembling my aftercooler and whatever else might be in the way for me to access the starter. With the serpentine belt off, would there be any other mechanisms involved that would prevent the starter from cranking/turning freely? It would be nice not to have to remove all these things to get at the starter, but I will do whatever is necessary.

Just thought of something else... while I was bleeding the clutch fluid, I added a little too much fluid to the reservoir at one time and when I put the lid back on it must've sqeezed some out. I remember seeing a drop or 2 fall while I was underneath the car. I looked and felt around but could not see/feel the source of the fluid. That was all I saw... out of sight, out of mind. Is there any chance some of that fluid might have found its way to the starter?

[omniruss]

Forgot comment on release fork.... I don't know what that is without looking it up. But the clutch seems to operate fine... I had my neighbor sit in the drivers seat, put the car in gear and press the clutch to the floor while I pushed the car - it moved as if it were in neutral. When he let the clutch out, the gears engaged and the car stopped.

[repiv]

Is there any chance some of that fluid might have found its way to the starter?
The starter is very close to the clutch fluid tank, but it's off a bit to the center. I suppose it is possible that some fluid made it's way into the starter, but it would have to be more than a few drops. Clutch fluid is somewhat corrosive.

Forgot comment on release fork.... I don't know what that is without looking it up. But the clutch seems to operate fine... I had my neighbor sit in the drivers seat, put the car in gear and press the clutch to the floor while I pushed the car - it moved as if it were in neutral. When he let the clutch out, the gears engaged and the car stopped.
This sounds like a good bit of detective work and is likely to eliminate the release fork. The release fork is the part that sticks out of the hole in the side of the tranny. The end of the slave cylinder plunger seats up against that little socket on the fork's end. If you didn't manipulate it during the slave removal and install, it should be fine and your test proved this.

It still wouldn't hurt to actually take a reading of the voltage of that battery. Sometimes, a bad battery can interfere with boosting from another car. It's an easy thing to do if you can get a volt meter.
You have a very perplexing situation.

[Satisaii]

This is a real long shot, but did you remove any brackets from the starter? I did an engine rebuild and used a bolt that was a bit too long on a starter bracket. The starter would turn, but was rubbing on that bolt.

[omniruss]

I had to remove my supercharger a couple weeks prior due to a broken pulley arm, but I didn't touch the starter. Additionally, the car ran fine for over a week before I put it on jack stands for another week. Thanks for the input tho, I'll accept any and all thoughts. I'm still waiting to find some stupid rag jammed in there somewhere like Dave had mentioned earlier. My mind has never been so boggled (and I like to think I'm a smart guy!) When I get home tonight I'll check for loose bolts on and near the starter.

[repiv]

I had to remove my supercharger a couple weeks prior due to a broken pulley arm, but I didn't touch the starter. Additionally, the car ran fine for over a week before I put it on jack stands for another week. Thanks for the input tho, I'll accept any and all thoughts.
Another long shot. Is it possible that when you put the supercharger back on, that you may have cinched down the belt way too tight? This could have placed severe stress on both the supercharger and engine front main bearing. It may have run fine for a period of time, but the bearing may have gotten extremely stressed. I've seen a lot of guys with superchargers go just a bit too rambunctious with tightening that belt.

[omniruss]

Following the Starter Circuit Troubleshooting procedure in the service manual, I got down to step 5 where it has you disconnect the BLK/WHT wire from the starter solenoid, and connect jumper wire from battery positive to solenoid terminal. The engine cranks!! And just for kicks I turned on the ignition and it started right up.

So now it says to follow step 6 which is a bulleted list of wire checks, without much explanation (this is on page 4-7 of 2005 edition.) All this information is probably buried in the manual somewhere, but based on the recent work I've done on my car, what do you suppose would be the most likely culprit, if any?

[repiv]

I'm going back to the brake fluid spill. Maybe it infiltrated the wiring at the starter and ate something away. You might also check all the fuses and breakers at the fuse box near the battery. In particular, check fuses 41 and 42. Those are the 2 biggest ones in there (100A and 40A)
Step 6 has you checking all the wiring between certain points to home in on the fault. I'd concentrate in the area of the starter wiring and at the clutch pedal near that interlock switch - the one that gets pushed as the pedal reaches the floor.

[omniruss]

I've been looking all over for break fluid corrosion on wires, it's tight and it's real hard to see thing, but nothing caught my eye. I will check fuses and let you know. Now back to the clutch interlock - I previously mentioned the interlock that's pressed while your foot is off the pedal and you said that's the cruise control interlock. I cannot see another interlock that's released when the clutch is on the floor. I should be looking under the dash and not in the engine bay, correct? The service manual seems to be pointing out the clutch cruise interlock.

[omniruss]

40A & 100A fuses look fine. They'd be black if blown, I assume.

Still looking for the other clutch interlock. Man I must be blind.

[repiv]

I've been looking all over for break fluid corrosion on wires, it's tight and it's real hard to see thing, but nothing caught my eye. I will check fuses and let you know. Now back to the clutch interlock - I previously mentioned the interlock that's pressed while your foot is off the pedal and you said that's the cruise control interlock. I cannot see another interlock that's released when the clutch is on the floor. I should be looking under the dash and not in the engine bay, correct? The service manual seems to be pointing out the clutch cruise interlock.
No, the CC defeat is the one that the pedal pulls away from when you push it. The starter interlock switch gets pushed into when the pedal is near the floor. Both are on the clutch pedal. The CC one is between the pedal and the driver. That's the one you've already found. The starter one is up high near the top of the pedal. Look further up. It's at the top of the pedal, above where the master cylinder rod connects to the pedal.

[omniruss]

Ok, found it. Holy frig there's no getting a wrench in there. Which means removing clutch bracket assembly or what? If I could even get something shoved in over that pin I might be able to prove that the interlock isn't positioned right. I mean maybe it's okay and the problem lies elsewhere. What's the easiest way to check this?

[repiv]

Ok, found it. Holy frig there's no getting a wrench in there. Which means removing clutch bracket assembly or what? If I could even get something shoved in over that pin I might be able to prove that the interlock isn't positioned right. I mean maybe it's okay and the problem lies elsewhere. What's the easiest way to check this?

Can you reach to disconnect the wiring harness? If you can, you can complete the circuit. I can't remember if it's a single wire or a double wire. If it's a single, then just ground it with a wire to a bolt. If it's 2 wires, jump the 2 leads to close the circuit, then try to crank.

[TJ S 2K]

Could it be the starter cut relay, interior fuse panel, or the start switch (button) itself ? That is all my manual shows between the battery and black/white terminal on the starter

[omniruss]

Had to remove CC interlock to get to clutch interlock. When I bridged the clutch interlock it started. I plugged it back in and adjusted the interlock so that the switch would be depressed farther when the clutch hits the floor, but it still didn't start. I checked the switch for continuity... continuity when switch is depressed, no continuity when switch is released.... ok fine. Put the interlock back in and tried it again, thinking maybe there was simply a loose connection somewhere. No start. Unscrewed it and pressed the interlock with my finger. It started. So, wanting to take it out for a spin with my new diff and no cdv, I decided to bridge the interlock. No start. Plugged the interlock back in and pressed with my finger. Started. Ok fine, I'll deal with it later, it's running.....

Well apparently my clutch isn't quite right. I could hear a slight flutter sound on the drivers side, then when I tried to push the clutch in, the fluttering got louder and engine rpms went down. This must be the fork problem you mentioned earlier? How can I tell if I have the slave cylinder seated properly? I took it completely off in order to remove the cdv, maybe I shouldn't have.

[repiv]

Had to remove CC interlock to get to clutch interlock. When I bridged the clutch interlock it started. I plugged it back in and adjusted the interlock so that the switch would be depressed farther when the clutch hits the floor, but it still didn't start. I checked the switch for continuity... continuity when switch is depressed... ok fine. Put the interlock back in and tried it again, thinking maybe there was simply a loose connection somewhere. No start. Unscrewed it and pressed the interlock with my finger. It started. So, wanting to take it out for a spin with my new diff and no cdv, I decided to bridge the interlock. No start. Plugged the interlock back in and pressed with my finger. Started. Ok fine, I'll deal with it later, it's running.....

Well apparently my clutch isn't quite right. I could hear a slight flutter sound on the drivers side, then when I tried to push the clutch in, the fluttering got louder and engine rpms went down. This must be the fork problem you mentioned earlier? How can I tell if I have the slave cylinder seated properly?

First, it appears as though your clutch-starter interlock switch mount has been compromised and needs some adjustment. This probably happened during the clutch bleed. You musta really punched it when you were pushing down on the pedal. :think:

This fluttering in the clutch area may be a partially dislodged fork or an improper slave piston ball to fork cup alignment. The fork itself clicks into a sort of receiving finger and is held in by a retaining spring. Here is a picture:
http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/42169/2395497460025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2395497460025981935Tytguh)
You pull it out of the tranny hole to dislodge it and you push it into the tranny casing to set it into its holder. Once seated, it should not move in or out with gentle pressure. It should not move up or down, but it will move fore and aft by about 1/16". Other than this, there should be NO play. When installing the slave cylinder, the plunger has to be pushed back into the slave cylinder enough so that the ball on the end can be placed squarely into the "socket" of the release fork end (the part that is exposed out of the tranny casing). I suggest you go back under and uninstall the slave cylinder again and purposely yank the fork out of the hook and then shove it back in with a well defined placement. The fingers of the forks must surround the release bearing in its groove precisely or it won't seat into the hook properly.
Here is a picture of the release bearing:
http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/21395/2210771030025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2210771030025981935ppvPBc)
See that arrow that angles UP? That's where the fingers of the fork must end up.
Here's a picture of a schematic of how it all goes together:
http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/42858/2453990610025981935S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2453990610025981935OHQvXB)
No. 4 is the fork and the green circled part is the cup that the slave piston ball pushes up against.

[omniruss]

Yep, the fork was dislodged. Fixed that, runs great.... Dave, I couldn't have done any of this without you, thank you thank you thank you. You'll be at s2k days 2008, right? It would be my honor to meet you! :thumbsup:

So anyway, back to my interlock... to be honest, everything I've done on my car is the most work I've ever done on any car, simply because I never owned a "second" vehicle and simply because I couldn't afford down time. So my s2k is my toy in every respect and I totally dig it. So this was the first time I ever bled a clutch, and again it was learn as I go, and yes I probably pressed on the clutch too hard trying to get it to bleed.... nothing and no one told me I had to first loosen the bleeder valve. :yikes: Once I did that it was a cinch.

I'm not sure where to go with the interlock - do you suppose the interlock itself is broke, perhaps if the button is not pressed in perfectly straight is doesn't quite make the necessary contact? I don't understand how it works when I press on it with my finger, yet when it's installed it doesn't work. I even used a mirror to see where the top of the clutch is making contact to press the button - it looks fine as far as I can tell. When I test it with a voltmeter the button does not have to travel far to produce continuity. I'm half tempted to take it somewhere, tell them what's wrong and have them break their back underneath the dash :D I guess what really bothers me is that it's not a complete ON or OFF - when the switch (or whatever) fails, it still permits the engine to crank but with very limited capacity.

[repiv]

Yes, I'll be at Lake George in Sept. Please do introduce yourself when we are there.

Good about the fork thing. It's not an uncommon thing when people work near that area.

As far as the clutch switch goes, you've proven that it works. I believe the problem is that the bracket that it mounts to has been pushed out of alignment and the pedal no longer pushes the pin in. It's either crooked or has been pushed too far away from the pedal mechanism. The end of the switch is threaded and has a lock nut. The whole switch can be screwed closer or farther from the pedal. Make sure the lock nut is loose and just try scewing it closer to the pedal, then lock the nut down and see what happens. The nut should be on the side closest to the body of the switch. You have to get up in there with a small open ended wrench to loosen it. It might be just a matter of trial and error.
Move your seat as far back as possible and lay on your back. A light on your forehead (like cavers) will help greatly. Have one arm in the footwell as you crawl in. Heck, you might even be able to just turn the switch (unscrew) to unlock it, then turn the locknut down the shaft ( towards the body of the switch) so the switch can be screwed into the mount. Then snug down the locknut.

[omniruss]

Yes, I tried that last night. But before I changed the adjustment, I used a mirror to see that the switch was pressed about half way when the clutch was to the floor. I then screwed the switch all the way into the bracket and tried to start... same results, only a slight crank.

[repiv]

Yes, I tried that last night. But before I changed the adjustment, I used a mirror to see that the switch was pressed about half way when the clutch was to the floor. I then screwed the switch all the way into the bracket and tried to start... same results, only a slight crank.

Hmmm, the mounting bracket may have been bent somehow and now the switch can't be mounted close enough or "square" enough to push straight on the pin. You'll have to analyse the bracket assembly to see if it's possible to move the whole thing back into the proper position. In the meantime (and I caution you on this), you can "jump" the switch full time, but be very careful about hitting the starter button. ALWAYS have the tranny in neutral and the clutch down before hitting that button. It's a good habit to get into even at the best of times.

[corey_dyck]

It's cool observing this troubleshooting process. Glad to hear that it's been narrowed down so much in a relatively short time.

If you have to do a lot of work under the dash, pull the driver's seat. It makes life SO much easier as you can lay on your back on the floor with your feet up on the roll bar. It's awkward getting in and out but once you're there it's much easier. The bar that runs just behind the floormat is a pain in the back/shoulders, but I preferred that over the contortions needed with the seat in place.

Pull the 4 seat bolts, disconnect the one wire connection near the middle of the seat base, and pull the seat out. It's easiest with the top down.

[omniruss]

Ok, I'll keep that in mind Corey. But I think she's all set. I put the clutch interlock back in (AGAIN) and screwed the adjustment all the way in. I put the car in neutral, turned the key, pressed the start button, then slowly pushed in the clutch until something happened. She fired right up with about 1/3 motion of the clutch. So I figured, huh, I guess I'll adjust it so that the car won't start until the clutch just reaches the floor. Now everything is just fine. I just don't understand how the switch could have generated a "half-on half-off" state where it would allow the start switch to crank the starter but not enough to start the engine.

[repiv]

I just don't understand how the switch could have generated a "half-on half-off" state where it would allow the start switch to crank the starter but not enough to start the engine.
That may remain a mystery, but for now, at least you've got it resolved. It's supposed to act like an "ON/OFF - deadman's" switch. It's peculiar that once it's push way beyond its normal range, it acts like a reostat. :think: I guess it really doesn't matter. Your car is back.