What is going on here?

[bimdub]

ok here is the deal, I have been experiencing a ticking noise for a while now, think valve noise....at least for the last few months, but I have not driven the car in a month.....so anyhow I finally get some free time....and go out for a drive......well the noise is more noticeable now.....and when I get home I decide to take a look.....the next day I open the top end up and

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc16/bimdub/Picture002.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc16/bimdub/Picture001.jpg

:yikes: that is the number four intake set of cam lobes......its the secondary lobe that you should be looking at.....I remember that I noticed the rocker arm was "sticky" before and wonder if there is an oiling problem going on? anyhow......it goes into the "Stealership" tuesday and we shall see exactly what happened.....fortunately I am still under warranty with my Certified used Honda......but I am concerned they are going to try to weasel out of this......I was told I should get a sample of the oil before I take it in to have it analyzed.....anyone know where I can get this done?

FWIW I use only Mobil 1 10w30 and have less than 1000 miles on this oil change....it does not appear to be a problem with the oil itself as this is the only lobe that looks like this....I think its an oiling problem......

[repiv]

Here is a link to Blackstone Labs for the oil analysis:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

That does look like an oiling problem, but you should also check the clearance on that one just to see if it was out of range severely. Also check the valve spring retainer on that one. It may have "sunk" and that's what may have been grinding on the lobe. Sunken and cracked valve retainers have been noted at an alarming rate in the past few years.

[bimdub]

thanks, kit ordered, and I will let you know what is found, but I can say the rocker is and was about three months ago.....binding on the shaft...I did not see anything wrong with the rocker visually.....but you make a good point, however if the retainer sank.....then it would rub the underside of the rocker? not the cam? the rocker is between them.....but it could be what is binding the rocker? also the valve clearance was within specification last time it was checked.

Just picking you brain here.....hence the question marks.....

[repiv]

Yes, you're right. The top of the valve stem and retainer doesn't touch the cam lobe, but it may create an odd resistance that "might" induce more than normal friction. Still worth a good look to eliminate as part of the problem.

[bimdub]

so I drop the car of last night.....I get a call today....they are going to do a valve adjustment on it......and I get to pay $145.00 for the work......however there was no mention of the condition of the camshaft? and they will need the car for 2 more days.....I figure I will not even get it till after the 4th...they are replacing the cam cover gasket as well, I figured it was re usable? he suggested replacing the plugs as well, and I informed him that they had barely 500 miles on them...as well as the oil.....of course he went through the entire list of "upcharges" like the coolant system flush, the brake fluid, rear diff and transmission. but I let him know I was planning on doing the brakes soon anyhow and the rear diff and transmission have less than 15K on them, I also know the coolant was done at ~30K as it had a full fluid change then so the coolant should be ok....I also let him know I was already aware the battery was "dying" and I would take care of that myself......

anyhow apparently they have not even looked inside the valve cover as of yet? :think: then he is assuming its needing a valve adjustment.......merely by the noise......

also for what its worth it got much worse on the way to the dealership.......its going FAST! I have only put around 50 miles on it since I first heard the noise........and it was originally very faint at 2-3K now its very prominent at idle and grows in volume until VTEC engages......

bottom line....if all they do is a valve adjustment then I certainly expect the engine will not last long......

I shall keep you posted....

[repiv]

An owner of weak mind would have let that dealer talk him into doing all those things. I hate dealers for this very reason. If they are already out to vacuum as much money from you as possible, can you even trust them to do the job right? I'd be looking at other alternatives.

[bimdub]

An owner of weak mind would have let that dealer talk him into doing all those things. I hate dealers for this very reason. If they are already out to vacuum as much money from you as possible, can you even trust them to do the job right? I'd be looking at other alternatives.

thanks for the hidden compliment......and no I doubt they will actually do the job correctly, but then they apparently have not properly diagnosed the problem anyhow......they must have a "jump to conclusions mat" (sorry, office space joke)

[My_yella_s2k]

so I drop the car of last night.....I get a call today....they are going to do a valve adjustment on it......and I get to pay $145.00 for the work......
he suggested replacing the plugs as well, and I informed him that they had barely 500 miles on them...as well as the oil.....of course he went through the entire list of "upcharges" like the coolant system flush, the brake fluid, rear diff and transmission. but I let him know I was planning on doing the brakes soon anyhow and the rear diff and transmission have less than 15K on them, I also know the coolant was done at ~30K as it had a full fluid change then so the coolant should be ok....I also let him know I was already aware the battery was "dying" and I would take care of that myself......
i do this everyday... BUT to a point, i make it a point to fix the complaints that were brought in, then advise the svcs we offer. :laugh: typical service advisor.....

Hope all works out well Carl!

[bimdub]

Update

Dealership called
Valve Adjustment did not make any difference
ummmm I figured that....
now they want to tear down the head.......as in complete.....and replace the valve guides.....
did I miss something here? they did not even mention the cam......or the rocker arms.....
sounds like its going to be a long hard road to get my car fixed.......and they are not even actually addressing the real issue!

[repiv]

I think you should get your car out of there before you have to mortgage your home to fund what they have planned.
I believe the cam needs to be removed and the rocker inspected to see if there is something amiss with that, that might be causing the cam to wear in such a fashion. Also inspect to see if oil flow into that area has been compromised. At the very least the cam and rocker should be replaced, but further investigation is needed to determine why this happened. I can't imagine valve guides having anything to do with this.

[s2keepup]

id take it to another dealer and show them ur pix... ive had several bad experiences at the same dealer and thought "oh maybe it was just this one time"..... its not.... you just have to find someone who knows wtf they are doing.... some dealers hire anyone off the street, some actually train their guys.

[bimdub]

rules are rules, I am bound by the Honda Care warranty to the dealer closest to me.....anyone else and they have cause to deny my claim. I honestly do not think they know what they are doing at all.....but the added tear down that is most likely not needed will only reflect on them very poorly in the long run, and further my push for this to be completely handled by Honda Care.

the point of my prior post is that they actually performed the valve adjustment and completely overlooked the damaged camshaft.....and reassembled the car only to realize the valve adjustment did not make the problem better......how on earth did they miss the camshaft damage? or....did they actually not do anything at all?

either way I have them by the .....well yeah those things.....they have already wronged me......and I certainly have made note of that.....I sure hope they get their ~~ together soon......I really hate to think I may have to hire an attorney......

[My_yella_s2k]

you can go to ANY dealer youd like to go to man.

[Goku]

Don't let the dealership make you think you can't point the problem out to them. Ask if you car is still apart and go in and show the tech exactly what you saw. It could be a rookie tech that doesn't have the know how to see the obvious. You wont be faulted for showing them the problem. You didn't create it? You just checked. I do all my work on my car, but when things have broken I have found the problem called the dealership. They give me the usual "we have to inspect it first to make sure" line, but they inspect it, see that the problem is exactly what I told them, It gets fixed and I'm out the door no charge. I too have the 100k 6yr Honda Care warranty. Don't sit back, they will go through every step in the book before they look at the big stuff.

[repiv]

Having just checked the service manual, it indicates that there is an oil passage in the rocker. Anytime a rocker is installed, compressed air is supposed to be blown into that passage. It would seem that blockage within this orifice is a concern. This should be looked into.

[bimdub]

well I am certainly feeling I should at least make it a point to pay them a visit.....and inspect the work myself....and I have nothing better to do at this time....

[bimdub]

ok visit paid......that went badly......not going to even begin to explain that.....I will say I was uncomfortable.....and not allowed to look at the car.....that said I was told the head is already off and yet they are still claiming valve guides......:think: I thought you had to pull the cams and rockers to even get the head off? if so then I ask......how many times has this issue been "in the light" right in front of the guys face? and still?

well I contacted Honda Care and will be dealing with them myself, after all if he cannot see obvious damage.....then I hardly think allowing him to replace my valve guides is even remotely a good idea.

on another note......since we did NOT see the car in any of the bays? I wonder if maybe they had a friggen accident and are scrambling to cover it up? well as most of us already know......matching Spa is a disaster waiting to happen......and I just had the car washed and waxed....

to be continued...

[repiv]

ok visit paid......that went badly......not going to even begin to explain that.....I will say I was uncomfortable.....and not allowed to look at the car.....that said I was told the head is already off and yet they are still claiming valve guides......:think: I thought you had to pull the cams and rockers to even get the head off? if so then I ask......how many times has this issue been "in the light" right in front of the guys face? and still?

well I contacted Honda Care and will be dealing with them myself, after all if he cannot see obvious damage.....then I hardly think allowing him to replace my valve guides is even remotely a good idea.

on another note......since we did NOT see the car in any of the bays? I wonder if maybe they had a friggen accident and are scrambling to cover it up? well as most of us already know......matching Spa is a disaster waiting to happen......and I just had the car washed and waxed....

to be continued...

Jeez, it's YOUR car. DEMAND to see it NOW! Go to the service manager or operations manager if you have to. This is starting to sound so fishy, I can smell it from here.
Yes, the cams and rockers should come off first before the head comes off but if they just undo the end pulleys and remove the chain, the head can come off with the valve train intact.
BTW, you can do valve guides WITHOUT taking the head off. I think they're screwing with you.

[s2keepup]

get your car out of that dealer!!!!!!!

as mikey said you can go to ANY dealer! go to another one and explain how this one screwed with you despite the problem. take your pix, and GO TO ANOTHER DEALER.

[dhayner]

Don't let the dealership make you think you can't point the problem out to them. Ask if you car is still apart and go in and show the tech exactly what you saw. It could be a rookie tech that doesn't have the know how to see the obvious. You wont be faulted for showing them the problem. You didn't create it? You just checked. I do all my work on my car, but when things have broken I have found the problem called the dealership. They give me the usual "we have to inspect it first to make sure" line, but they inspect it, see that the problem is exactly what I told them, It gets fixed and I'm out the door no charge. I too have the 100k 6yr Honda Care warranty. Don't sit back, they will go through every step in the book before they look at the big stuff.

Right! You've got the picture - show them the picture.

[bimdub]

major update....

well after some reviewing, we are going to be having a new head installed by Honda via Honda Care.....they were going to deny me because of the K&N but we have solved that situation, I am glad for the new head as I am unsure of the ability of this shop to re assemble the head they have stripped, apparently there was some damage to the valve retainer as well as the valve locks too, they suspect lack of proper oiling to the rocker shaft. we do not know why this happened, but I get the impression it has happend before, it took very little time to determine that it was a warranty issue and there was no question of the maintanence or care of the vehicle.

[repiv]

Good news. :thumbup:

[bimdub]

ok car is done, I apparently have had something wrong for some time, because I am certainly sure the bottom and mid range power are WAY up..... but the new head was the ticket!

[Timber]

Great news! No cost, no noise and more power! Can't get much better than that.

[bimdub]

and now this interested me......

ebay item number 290255379571

a 2002 S2000 cylinder head for sale in my area? WTF? this has me :think: could this be my cylinder head.....the original one that I asked for from the dealer...that they refused to "show" me or give me....they said it was going to be analyzed by AHM? I am going to request to see the head from the seller......

[desmo4]

I would call Honda in Torrence CA and tell them the whole story, name names and how you were treated. Even though the car is running properly.

Jonathan

[bimdub]

yeah I am going to be calling in the AM......after all I still had to pay $237 for my car to get fixed under warranty....now is the time for answers!

[bimdub]

ok...update....called AHM.....they "claim" there is no way that head can be mine.....and they have no idea why I was charged labor for warranty work.

as for the head they say it was supposed to be sent back to them to ensure that it was replaced......as for the labor charges, they tell me I have to take that up with the "stealership" and they can't do anything about it.....

well guess what......I called about that head......and it is in fact the head off of my car.....and I will be getting some documentation of that today. and here is the reason why.....I firmly believe this stealership has taken advantage of me and Honda......I smell a scam here......and I do not like the smell very much at all.....

and while I am not saying this is representative of all dealerships this certainly has not done this one any good at all, and trying to file a complaint about it got me nothing, so in the long run Honda has only lost a customer......I will no longer be doing business with them, for anything, arts service or new cars motorcycles or whatever else they push.....I am done....I have been lied to and taken advantage of.

that said I know there is a decent running if not all original 2002 Spa that will be paid off soon enough and will either end up sitting on blocks or in someone elses driveway. I am going shopping for a replacement.

this leaves the big question......BMW 135i or Subaru STI?

[bimdub]

well the proof is in the pudding, the guy selling the head is the guy who did the repairs to my car, and it is for 100% sure the head and cams off of my S2000......the art that is now of concern is the hardware that should have been used to put my new head onto my engine is being sold with my old head.....the dealership lied, AHM lied to me and the tech lied to me.....told me he got the head from a friend......

[repiv]

It might be time to get the dealer principle involved. Send him a link to this thread, along with all the other "evidence" you have collected. Maybe the word "lawyer" should enter into the conversation, now.
This is looking like a scam, plain and simple and it may turn out to be a case of thievery. Now, you must begin to suspect whether or not the extent of this fix was absolutely necessary.

[bimdub]

you read my mind.....I have printed all of this thread as well as the ebay listing and will be going into the dealership today. I personally examined the head in question yesterday and it is my old head, I am troubled about whether the new bolts honda paid for were used in my repair, or are they on the ebay listing......yeah......there is some fishy stuff going on here.

[repiv]

Is your old head being sold as "good" condition or "as is"? If it's in good condition, the only reason they did the "repair" was to scam Honda and make money on the old unit. Furthermore, if it's in good condition, then what was really wrong with your car? Why didn't they just do what they did to your old head so they can sell it?

[bimdub]

ok, you are right Dave.......those questions are the very questions I presented to AHM as well as the service manager today, AHM was pretty embarrassed as as well as upset about this, the Service manager was also visibly embarrassed. the Technician (the guy selling the part on Ebay) was present when this was discussed....oddly enough the cylinder head is no longer for sale on Ebay....

just copy and paste this number into your ebay search box....

290255379571

I doubt this will ever happen again here......but now I probably have a pissed off former honda tech looking to seek some revenge on a Spa Yellow S2000?

[repiv]

ok, you are right Dave.......those questions are the very questions I presented to AHM as well as the service manager today, AHM was pretty embarrassed as as well as upset about this, the Service manager was also visibly embarrassed. the Technician (the guy selling the part on Ebay) was present when this was discussed....oddly enough the cylinder head is no longer for sale on Ebay....

just copy and paste this number into your ebay search box....

290255379571

I doubt this will ever happen again here......but now I probably have a pissed off former honda tech looking to seek some revenge on a Spa Yellow S2000?
So, I wonder where they got the cams from since your old ones were scored pretty badly. As far as the revenge thing goes, if I were you, I would never again set foot in that service dept. again. Time to find another dealer.

[bimdub]

So, I wonder where they got the cams from since your old ones were scored pretty badly. As far as the revenge thing goes, if I were you, I would never again set foot in that service dept. again. Time to find another dealer.

thats just it Dave, the cams he had with the head were my scored cams.....he had not even noticed the scoring.....what a :loser:

as for me ever going back there.....well trust me not only will I never go back, but I will do everything I can encourage others to avoid this dealer as well.....

[bimdub]

so I went to the dealership, presented my overwhelming evidence, and then left. I had also reported this to AHM with the same evidence presented.

I have been contacted by the dealer and they would like to know what I want to do about this, they are totally willing to let me make the call. As it turns out the cylinder head only needed the one valve redone and it still needs the intake cam replaced. (Honda replaced my entire head for this)

I was offered the cylinder head, the tech has done some work to it (about $80) but it is up for me to decide how I would like this resolved, I imagine I could have the tech fired as well?

what to do? should I get the head back? originally I considered giving the head to the local College auto shop program.....

what to do....

[Ulrich]

Did you say you were out any money yourself? Or was it all paid for by Honda?

My overriding principles in this case would be: (1) I am not out any money, (2) the guilty party shall not profit from this event and (3) everybody involved needs to feel that they screwed up and are being punished. Having said that, while I am sure there are some possible legal avenues that you could take, I wouldn't bother.

If you want to take the philantropic approach, I would suggest the following.

(1) The dealer refunds any and all money that you had previously paid for the work.
(2) The dealership and the mechanic write a letter to you outlining what happened and apologizing to you (not that the letter will eally make any difference, but it's good to have a record for the future).
(3) The cylinder head and any other parts go to the local college.
(4) The dealership will make a monetary contribution to the college.
(5) The mechanic will dedicate 20 hours of his time to working with the students at that college class. And he will do it with a smile. And the dealership will make sure he understands that he otherwise will not keep his job.

Oh yes, and you get the tax deduction for the donation(s), of course. ;)

[repiv]

^ I agree with this. The ultimate thing I'd want is to NOT be out of pocket any money whatsoever. The rest, well, could be goodwill to someone else but in your name. I think Honda USA will deal with this internally now that they have full knowledge of what happened. I don't think you need to bother with this part any further.

[desmo4]

In point 3 you need to add "before delivering the cylinder head it will be inspected by the owner."

Jonathan

[bimdub]

Did you say you were out any money yourself? Or was it all paid for by Honda?



yup, this cost me $237 in labor and shop supplies that was unpaid by Honda, so I figure the head should either become mine, or I should not have to pay anything (full reimbursement) after all by the policy if Honda had paid the full amount then I would have no claim to any old parts, but since I was charged, I am entitled by law to the old parts.

I figured I would at least be reasonable enough to offer the $80 the tech has put into the head reconditioning it and I get the head. unless he would rather reimburse me the $237?

apparently this shop is very concerned about getting an audit.

as for any tax deductions, they probably would not even be enough to make any reasonable difference. I usually file EZ. I do like the idea of having the Tech donate some time though...and the dealership making a monetary contribution is a nice touch.....:think:

[repiv]

apparently this shop is very concerned about getting an audit.
The more one has cheated and hidden, the more one tends to fear such things.

[My_yella_s2k]

Audits suck.
dealership audits are the worst....

[bimdub]

Ok, just to finish what I started.

I presented my case to the Dealership, and then contacted AHM, I was given a claim number, and the Dealership contacted me and asked what I thought was the best solution, I discussed this at great length with the Service Manager, as it turns out they were unaware of the policy.

So anyway we managed to find a reasonable solution that makes me happy, and I have taken the time to discuss this with the Technician and again everything is resolved to my satisfaction.

The point here is that if you are ever unsatisfied you should seek resolution, I think the best thing I did was manage to present my situation very calmly, and work with them to get a solution, I did still call AHM so they would know I was not just complaining blindly, however I have since called AHM and informed them that the situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.

At this point I even feel comfortable having my car serviced in the future by this dealership, so without telling you what the exact solution was you can only imagine that I am pleased.

as for the future of this thread, I no longer need to contribute to it, but I feel that it may be useful for future reference when having troubles with the dealership, or in the event that lots of S2000's end up eating cam lobes? if anyone would like me to post good pictures for reference I would be happy to shoot some new photos.

I also really need to thank some of our members for supporting me through this and allowing me to vent......Thank you Dave (repiv) for the technical support! you are top notch and I owe you those photos! and thanks to Mike (My_yella_s2k) for letting me literally vent over the phone, you insight as to the workings of a Honda service center was paramount to getting my situation resolved.

and to the rest of you all that posted here :thumbup:

[repiv]

It's satisfying, from an observer's point of view, to see this situation concluded. :thumbup:
As for the photos, I think you should start a new thread only to post what those cams look like, with a link to this thread so people know the background. Close this one so it doesn't get dug up later for further re-hash and state in the new thread that it is only for reference and discussions on the whole service fiasco should not be brought up as it's been dealt with here.