can a brand of oil make a difference

[Coop]

Ok tell me what you think. I have had my car for 5 years and 10 months, at around 10k miles I changed to 10-30 Mobile 1 full synthetic oil. I have changed the oil every 4-5k miles. About 6 months ago, I use some 10-30 Castrol Synthetic and started getting an oil light as the rpm dropped below 1000rpms and also on long mid-hard braking. I thought maybe a sensor or oil pump was starting to go bad. Yesterday I put some Mobile 1 back in and have not see an oil light since.

Can an oil make this difference ?

[repiv]

I believe there can be "brand" differences in hot and cold viscosities within the same viscosity ratings. Indeed, there can be differences in pumping pressures and resistences from one brand to another.
Multigrade oils are what they are depending upon the manufacturing process and the additives placed in the oil for stabilization.

[Coop]

thanks, I guess I will stick with Mobile 1 for a while.

[repiv]

I should have mentioned that I've been using M1 for years in the S and lately, I've switched to Castrol Syntec about a year ago due to the recommendation of another S2000 owner who did some investigation into this. He said the Syntec was a slightly better oil. I've noticed no difference in the way it works in my car. I think I'll just get whatever is easiest to find and cheapest at the time.

[RatedR]

I was taking a call at work from an oil tech that helped out in Nascar, he states the oil they use in qualifying and in the actual race differs. I doubt you'd get that big a difference w/ these over the counter oils, but if the racers in NASCAR change the oil for different situations, then there's got to be a difference that affects performance according to the race conditions. Does that make sense?

[H20]

To the OP, I would think about an oil pressure gauge if I were you. My experiance with idiot lights has been when they go on you have zero pressure. Wonder what the S's light goes on at. Anyone know? Damn silly thing it does not come with one.

[thereur]

The Castrol is a bit thicker when up to temp, but not by that much. Considering Honda also specs our motors to run 5w40, a 30 weight on the slightly thick side should not be an issue. I agree about the pressure gauge, since something doesn't sound right. BTW I run Amsoil 5w30, which is a about the same thickness at 100 degrees as the Castrol. Have never seen the light on.

[Hawkeye]

I was taking a call at work from an oil tech that helped out in Nascar, he states the oil they use in qualifying and in the actual race differs. I doubt you'd get that big a difference w/ these over the counter oils, but if the racers in NASCAR change the oil for different situations, then there's got to be a difference that affects performance according to the race conditions. Does that make sense?

They probably use a super lightweight oil during qualifying since it's only a couple of laps. But for the race they need max durability so they use the appropriate weight oil.

[hecash]

A chemist/engineer in the testing area working for Castrol told a friend of mine that he uses one quart of Castrol Syntec at whatever rating the car maker recommended and the rest in Castrol's organic oil of the same rating. He was also emphatic, very emphatic, that no other oil tested better than Castrol Syntec in their labs. So, being the good and cool follower that I am, I full the sucker with Castrol Syntec, with, BTW, no issues at all over both my first AP1 (87.000 miles) and my present AP2 (18.000 miles).

[bimdub]

ohhhh dear......its the great oil debate coming up.....:yield:

[Coop]

ohhhh dear......its the great oil debate coming up.....:yield:

I hope not, the question was, can changing oil brands, cause the oil light to come on during different times?

[Rocketman]

I think the answer is yes.

[repiv]

I think the answer is yes.

He's right. I explained stuff, then forgot to answer the question. :doh: My initial thought was that due to the differences in additives packages in different brands of oils of the same viscosity rating, pumping pressures can vary and it's the pressure the oil exerts after it's pumped, that registers on the oil pressure sensor (and hence the activation of the idiot light). I believe that idiot will begin to blink when the oil pressure gets down to around 10 - 12 psi, which really tells the operator nothing except that maybe it's too late. This is especially true when running at speed and doesn't not apply to a hot, low rpm idle.

[Hawkeye]

I hope not, the question was, can changing oil brands, cause the oil light to come on during different times?

I'd say no. Your oil pump should have a pressure regulator and it regulates oil at a certain pressure. The regulator stays closed until it's preset max pressure is read then it starts to bleed excess volume to control the set pressure. Now, if you put 90 weight oil in your engine your oil pressure regulator would be wide open and still produce more pressure than the regulator is supposed to put out.

Minute differences in oil blends of the same weight, and even different weights of engine oil should never cause a loss of pressure. If your oil light is coming on either you have a pressure loss (malfunctioning regulator or excess bearing clearances) or a malfunctioning sensor.

[desmo4]

I use Redline exclusively for the engine transmission and diff. I also have a SPA oil pressure/ water temp gauge so I can see what's really going on. With 10w30 I see 91 psi at speed with the engine warmer up.

Jonathan

[Hawkeye]

Jonathan that's an excellent idea (oil pressure gauge), especially if you track your car.

[repiv]

I'd say no. Your oil pump should have a pressure regulator and it regulates oil at a certain pressure. The regulator stays closed until it's preset max pressure is read then it starts to bleed excess volume to control the set pressure. Now, if you put 90 weight oil in your engine your oil pressure regulator would be wide open and still produce more pressure than the regulator is supposed to put out.

Minute differences in oil blends of the same weight, and even different weights of engine oil should never cause a loss of pressure. If your oil light is coming on either you have a pressure loss (malfunctioning regulator or excess bearing clearances) or a malfunctioning sensor.

This is all true. Any pressure regulation is at the "max" end, where it acts like a relief valve. Below max pressure, the pump puts out whatever pressure it does based on rpm. There is no regulation. In the case of COOP's situation, what he's seeing is very low rpm pressures dropping to the point where the oil light begins to flicker. In his case, we're dealing with hot oil temps, very low rpm. It is my belief that pumping resistance of different oils at high temp, very low pump pressures, can manifest itself in what he's seeing.

[Hawkeye]

If I were him the first order of business would be installing a pressure guage. I've seen an oil pump (internally regulated) have some debri which hung up the pressure relief ball enough to drop oil pressure dramatically. You could install the guage under the hood or even temporarily mount it there.

[speedracer]

Coop,

I have been using Mobil 1. I have noticed that my car is very sensitive to oil changes. When I wait past about 3 K car runs rough at idle and tends to drop below 1000 RPM when the AC kicks in.

Based on my information, Mobil 1 is Poly Alpha Olefin which is has a very specific chemical structure and is chemically very stable and has a stable temp/ viscosity profile. Other oils are typically refined, and may not be as stable.

So, I am sure there are other good oils out therem but I am sticking with Mobil 1.

[Coop]

A pressure gauge would be a great idea, but where to mount one. NO A PILLAR mount.

[TXGator]

Coop -- I recently has an opposite experience to yours. Your experience sounds a lot like a high-mileage car that is very used Mobil1.

Last month I got an oil change with ~10K miles on my 2006 S. I took it to Bankston Honda in Lewisville. When they finished, I asked what oil they used and was told they put in a synthetic mix. I was concerned b/c the Honda of McKinney previously had advised not to use synthetic before 15K miles for valve seating.

Within days, I noticed the valve lifters became noisier when cold, and the oil level steadily dropped from high to the lowest acceptable level, so it was down ore than 1 qt.. I took it back to McKinney and had them run through; it's back to Quaker State 10W-30 for now. I'm watching the oil level. If it stays solid, then it's too early for the synthetic Bankston put it.

A few notes and questions:

-- Lots of cars come from factory filled with synthetic, so why can't the S2000 take it before 15K mi.?

-- Bankston and McKinney clearly do things differently. My trust in McKinney is far greater; they've been very responsive.

-- Techs from both shops told me about engines they have replaced at 7,500 miles on synthetic oil, and that Honda uses the same standard filter with a synthetic fill. Synthetic oil should not break down as fast as conventional petroleum-based motor oil, but I thought a superior filter was essential. What filters do you use in your S?

[repiv]

A pressure gauge would be a great idea, but where to mount one. NO A PILLAR mount.

I have seen gauge mounts that have these high stick "duck feet". If all you want is one gauge, you can use one of these mounts and put it at the base of the A pillar. Maybe one of our sponsors sell these things.

[repiv]

I was concerned b/c the Honda of McKinney previously had advised not to use synthetic before 15K miles for valve seating. Refraining from using synthetic goes back to the AP1 2.0L engines. Those engines typically used a lot of oil for the first 10K miles. There were many reasons why they burnt oil, but I won't go into it in too much detail here. Honda took note of this oil consumption and issued an internal memo advising them to tell S2000 owners to hold off switching to synthetic till at least 7500 miles. By the time the 2.2L engine came along, Honda had done a couple of things to the engine and oil consumption was "generally" no longer an issue but they never took that memo off the books. Through the years, dealers just kept telling customers to stay away from synthetic for a while and the reasons became clouded over time. Dealers made up their own reasons. It had nothing to do with valve seating but rather, more to do with the Fiber Re-inforced Metal cylinder liners and the specific type of rings used back then.

Within days, I noticed the valve lifters became noisier when cold, and the oil level steadily dropped from high to the lowest acceptable level, so it was down ore than 1 qt.. I took it back to McKinney and had them run through; it's back to Quaker State 10W-30 for now. I'm watching the oil level. If it stays solid, then it's too early for the synthetic Bankston put it.A full synthetic does tend to have much better flow characteristics (just a touch thinner at all temp ranges) and this may cause more valve noise to come through. This is not necessarily a bad thing, just that "dino" oil may muffle valve sounds a bit more. The oil consumption you witnessed is also not uncommon. There have been reports from owners who have noticed the same thing when they switched to synthetic. Do keep an eye on the level over time.
I'm sure you just made a slip of the finger when you typed "lifters", but we don't have hydraulic lifters. We do, however, have a fairly typically noisy valvetrain.

-- Lots of cars come from factory filled with synthetic, so why can't the S2000 take it before 15K mi.?The 2.0L engines couldn't use synthetic right off the bat for reasons I mention previously. However, I think that the vast majority of AP2 with 2.2L engines can, with only a very few exceptions to this. I believe yours might be one of them.

-- Techs from both shops told me about engines they have replaced at 7,500 miles on synthetic oil, and that Honda uses the same standard filter with a synthetic fill.To the best of my knowledge, no S2000 had a factory fill of full synthetic oil. The engines that they replaced were most likely AP1 2.0L engines where the oil consumption was quite excessive and the owners simply demanded something be done about it.

Synthetic oil should not break down as fast as conventional petroleum-based motor oil, but I thought a superior filter was essential. What filters do you use in your S?The OEM oil filter used on this car has some sort of anti-drain back valving in it. Some owners insist that this is crucial. I'm not one of them. I use proven name brand oil filters in this car and after nearly 8 years and over 50K miles, my engine is doing just fine. It's also supercharged for over 6 of those years. I've used OEM filters, Purolator and Purolator Pure ONE filters in my car. I presently use the Pure ONE. I have also done oil changes for other S2000 owners in my area and they have used everything from K&N to Mobil 1 filters. All seem to work well as proven by used oil analysis. Keep in mind that the we have all adhered to the Honda recommended oil change interval.

Insofar as your increased valve noise, don't be too alarmed at this point. Keep track of it and compare sounds if you ever meet up with other S2000 owners. It may very well be "normal". As for the oil consumption, only time will tell now that you've changed back to dino oil.

[TXGator]

Thanks for the detailed response!

[photodavo]

Just to support Dave's information...

I have a 2002 AP1 and I never had a significant amount of oil consumption early on. At 12K I switched to Mobil 1 and now I go through at least 1 qt per every 3-5K interval. I have learned to live with it and just keep topping off between changes. I still think the benefit from the Mobil 1 is worth it over the consumption but that it just my opinion. In the long run, oil id cheap.

[rioyellows2k]

The Service Advisor was clearly mistaken at Bankston then. On the S2000 we only use 2 Oils. Honda Genuine 10w30 or Mobil1 10w30. Nothing else.

We don't stock Drums or Barrels of 10w30 because the only car to use it is the S2000. Every other Honda is pretty much 5w20.

Keep in mind, Service advisors are salespeople, and only do what the technicians advise. They fill the unspoken gaps with their "knowledge."

Some of our advisors are clearly car guys, and some are clearly not. But you can tell right off the bat.

If your car is a Honda, we use only Honda Genuine Filters. On a Honda we use only honda replacement parts for the sole reason of reliability.

Don't swear by Honda Cars of McKinney...That's the same dealership that was using Honda VTM-4 Differential Fluid for the S2000 Differential Fluid Service a few years back.

[repiv]

Don't swear by Honda Cars of McKinney...That's the same dealership that was using Honda VTM-4 Differential Fluid for the S2000 Differential Fluid Service a few years back.That's says it all. :(

[Coop]

what I think would be nice is something like the A'PEXi that repiv has, but for oil pressure, then mount it at the lower left of the a pillar. small, simple, neat

[repiv]

what I think would be nice is something like the A'PEXi that repiv has, but for oil pressure, then mount it at the lower left of the a pillar. small, simple, neat

I so wish that I-Moni could interpret oil pressure. Unfortunately, the sending unit Honda uses is not "calibrated" in such a way that it sends out varying voltage. It's more of an "on/off" switch. Therefore, another sending unit must be used and then, the car's ECU won't understand those signals.:duh:

[Coop]

Thanks, It's a nice clean unit and I wish A'PEX would make a oil gauge of the same design


another one would be something that could be placed on the steering column , about the size of V1 remote.

[Coop]

I think I might look in to this from Defi

http://www.nippon-seiki.co.jp/defishop/product/dp/dp_top.html

[repiv]

I think I might look in to this from Defi

http://www.nippon-seiki.co.jp/defishop/product/dp/dp_top.html

NIce! I've installed the Defi product on a friend's S2000, but he uses only the round gauges mounted in a pillar pod. The only thing I see as a negative with the Defi is that it's quite expensive if all you want is one monitoring device like oil pressure. Whether you use it for one thing or a whole variety of inputs, you still have to buy the main control unit. Certainly, you'll have future expandability but if you never intend to get more readouts, that's quite an expenditure for just oil pressure.

[Coop]

yes, that is what I was thinking also.

I could always hook up the other information, not a bad idea.

[Double'SS']

I've seen an oil pump (internally regulated) have some debri which hung up the pressure relief ball enough to drop oil pressure dramatically.

This is a very valid point. Contamination is the number one enemy of a pump's pressure regulating valve. If the valve is sticking as your RPM's drop you will definitely see a drop in pressure since fluid continues to vent when it shouldn't.

Note the difference between sticking and stuck. If the valve was stuck open or seized in the vent position, it is unlikely that your pump would prime the next time you start the car - it wouldn't be able to create vacuum.

Coop, you mentioned that upon changing back to M1 you have yet to experience a oil pressure light. Following the above theory, it is possible that the contaminants which were sticking the valve were flushed out with the oil change.

How many oil change intervals did you run with the Castrol Syntec? Just one?

[Jack Broughton]

When using premium-grade API certified lub of the same rated viscosity and classification regardless of brand name , the cold and hot viscosities should be similiar and certaintly not detectable with a pressure light. The first thing I woud do is check my owner's manual and then my shop manual to determine gauge pressure vs. engine rpm. The owner's manual states that if the indicator lights stays on with the engine running, it shows that the engine has lost oil pessure and serious engine damage is possible. If this was my car, I would determine the cause starting with a temporary oil pressure gauge to determine if the light was operating properly, or better yet, take it to the Honda dealer.

[repiv]

When using premium-grade API certified lub of the same rated viscosity and classification regardless of brand name , the cold and hot viscosities should be similiar
While this is quite true, what I'm getting at has to do with the pressure exerted by an oil at various temps. I've shown in some home experiments, that while one oil will pour like water at -18*C, another oil of the same API rating, will pour like molasses. Along these same lines, where one oil at 120+*C may exert 15 psi at 900 rpm (using the S2000 as an example), another oil of the same viscosity rating, may indeed exert much less than 15 psi under the same conditions - enough to perhaps cause an oil pressure switch to trip on and off.
While I'm no tribologist, I don't believe viscosity can be directly translated into flow characteristics, pumping resistance, pressures exerted.

[Jack Broughton]

Repiv, most respectfully I must disagree. Viscosity is directly related to flow as it is defined as the property of a homogeneous fluid which causes it to offer frictional resistance to motion. In the case of a liquid, viscosity is a measure of relative fluidity at some definite temperature. This is from an Engineering Experimentation college text book, copyright 1966.

[repiv]

Thank you for being so civil in your disagreement. I can't argue with text book facts, but I can also not refute the results of my own cold pour experiment. Thusly, I will leave this point as is.

[speedracer]

We spend quite a bit of time on temperature and pressue profiles for organic base fluids at work. We have traditinally use diesel and mineral oils which have certain temperature/ pressure/ viscosity profiles. In more recent years we have expanded the fluids we use in our products to include synthetic fluids such as esters, internal olefins, polyalphaolefins, and synthetic paraffins. Most of the sales specifications (spec sheets) offer viscosity ratings at a given temperature and pressue ( usually 40 C), They also list pour points at a given temperature and pressue. However, we have seen significant differences in temperature, pressue visconsity profiles over a wide range of temperaure and pressue for fluids that meet the same basic specs on the spec sheet.

The driver in the various profiles is the chemistry of the base fluid, The basic driver is the chemistry ( olefins vs esters) Once you get to a particular chemical family (hydrocarbons) it becomes focused on carbon chain length, degree of branching, and the nature of the branching structures. So, in the case of PAOs ( Mobil 1) They have a highly branched strucutre which allows them to be pourable at low temperatures and stable at high temperatures. So, it is very possible to have two products that meet the same specifications and still have different viscosity profiles.

[Rocketman]

We spend quite a bit of time on temperature and pressue profiles for organic base fluids at work. We have traditinally use diesel and mineral oils which have certain temperature/ pressure/ viscosity profiles. In more recent years we have expanded the fluids we use in our products to include synthetic fluids such as esters, internal olefins, polyalphaolefins, and synthetic paraffins. Most of the sales specifications (spec sheets) offer viscosity ratings at a given temperature and pressue ( usually 40 C), They also list pour points at a given temperature and pressue. However, we have seen significant differences in temperature, pressue visconsity profiles over a wide range of temperaure and pressue for fluids that meet the same basic specs on the spec sheet.

The driver in the various profiles is the chemistry of the base fluid, The basic driver is the chemistry ( olefins vs esters) Once you get to a particular chemical family (hydrocarbons) it becomes focused on carbon chain length, degree of branching, and the nature of the branching structures. So, in the case of PAOs ( Mobil 1) They have a highly branched strucutre which allows them to be pourable at low temperatures and stable at high temperatures. So, it is very possible to have two products that meet the same specifications and still have different viscosity profiles.
Hmmm.........sounds fishy to me...:shifter:

:laugh:

[speedracer]

Hmmm.........sounds fishy to me...:shifter:

:laugh:

If this post keeps going I'm going to pull out my power point presenations and start posting chemical structures. Hmmmm starting to sound like work.:thumbdown:

[Rocketman]

If this post keeps going I'm going to pull out my power point presenations and start posting chemical structures. Hmmmm starting to sound like work.:thumbdown::yikes:

[Jasonoff]

Mmmmmm Defi BF

http://jasonoff.iroque.com/DefiS2000a.jpg

[Hawkeye]

It is possible that the oil changed flushed out possible debri that was hanging up the pressure relief ball.

While some of this theory of oil properties is interesting and has a basis in truth, it has little to nothing to do with the problem at hand. No offense to anyone.

Practically speaking, and if this was my car, I'd install an oil pressure guage immediately under the hood just to get an idea of what the oil pressure is and not worry about asthetics. You'll just need to figure out where to tap into a pressure source.