Richmond's 4.56 Final Drive

[Alacrity]

I keep hearing different things about different final drive ratios. Stock is 4.10, Richmonds is 4.75, but what does that really do for the driving experience. I'm seriously thinking about changing my final drive ratio but need to know a coupla of things. Will it make the car more or less drivable? IE- less or more time between shifts. And at the top end, will I get some gas savings from lowered rpms or the other way around? Thanks for the help!

[EODS2000]

Whether you choose to go with the 4.44, 4.56, or the 4.77 you are going to have less time between shifts and worse fuel economy. Your cruising speeds will now be running higher rpms, or you can maintain the same rpm by driving slower. As far as driviability, there will be the feeling of more torque. The gears do not actually change the power or torque output of the engine. From the posts I have seen from people with this mod, they all seem very pleased.

[Slambo]

I have the 4.56 from HTG, I like the new gear ratio, its a bit louder then the stock 4:10, fuel consumption, I now get around 270 miles out of my tank maybe 280, but I do have a bit of a leadfoot. The top end is lowered to around 135+ plenty fast to go to jail, and shifting at 1st will take a little time to get used to. I have read that this final drive raises the rpm by 400 over stock.

[batguano]

I too have the 4.56 from HTG. Noisy, oh yeah. I'm getting ready to do a fluid change and will try Valvolene 90-140 with a friction modifyer additive. I'll let you all know if that helps.

[wildncrazy]

If you have an AP1 simply change to the AP2 tranny. It will give you the equivalent of a lower rear end ratio (4.3 if I remember correctly) but better cruising rpms in 6th

[S2KPUDDYDAD]

Gears are fun and make the car more drivable at lower speeds. 0 to 60 is a blast and the gears give a feeling of have more torque.
Top end will fall but, who cares...how often are you going over 130 mph. RPMs will increase but, this car likes high revs and performers better at a higher RPM anyway.
A 4.44 gear will be as quite as the 4.10 and perform close to a 4.56 without the whine;)

[Jasonoff]

A 4.44 gear will be as quite as the 4.10 and perform close to a 4.56 without the whine;)I'm used to hearing people whine.. may as well let my car get in on it :martini2:

I think the Invidia will drown out the whine anyhow. :lol:

[S2KPUDDYDAD]

I too have the 4.56 from HTG. Noisy, oh yeah. I'm getting ready to do a fluid change and will try Valvolene 90-140 with a friction modifyer additive. I'll let you all know if that helps.

Try this first :)
http://forums.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/medium/stock_diff_4_44_shipping_1.jpg

Use 70% Lucas 80/90 gear oil and 30% Lucas oil stabilizer. The stabilizer will keep the oil stabile at 90W and the anti shock helps keep the oil from braking down to fast. The rear will run quieter with this blend as well.

[Sideways]

I found the 4.44s to be excellent and daily drove them for 5 years. They were quiet and quick. The 4.44s lowered my quarter mile elapsed time about 0.5 seconds. With our low torque from the factory, lower gears make it easier to get started.

I noticed that if my foot slipped off the clutch at idle the car would stall with 4.10s. With the 4.44s it would lurch forward and idle away.

Adding boost made the 4.44s too low and I went back to the 4.10s.

[batguano]

Try this first :)
http://forums.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/medium/stock_diff_4_44_shipping_1.jpg

Use 70% Lucas 80/90 gear oil and 30% Lucas oil stabilizer. The stabilizer will keep the oil stabile at 90W and the anti shock helps keep the oil from braking down to fast. The rear will run quieter with this blend as well.

Thanks, I think I saw the same thing mentioned on that "other" place.
If the change coming up is still noisy, I'll try that.

[Jasonoff]

Adding boost made the 4.44s too low and I went back to the 4.10s.Humm..

I'm adding and SC next season but going with 4.56/AP2 Trans this year. I'm not going with a highboost setup. Were the 4.44's too much only with the kind of power you're running now?

[JonBoy]

You have to remember that Sideways' version of boost is a lot different than most. I believe he's over the 500whp mark (supercharged) and most here won't go much over 300 whp in supercharged applications. With 500 hp, you really don't need shorter gears - heck, 3.90s or something might be a better solution than 4.10s.

[repiv]

Sideways didn't just add BOOST. He added BOOST!
I added stock BOOST, have 4.44s and AP2 tranny in my AP1. This combination is just the catsass for me.

[Slambo]

Not to change topics here but I read on S2ki that Sideways also has lightened up his S. What were the mods he did to lighten the car and whats the weight of his S currently, I tryed looking on S2ki for this but had no luck :rolleye2:

[repiv]

Not to change topics here but I read on S2ki that Sideways also has lightened up his S. What were the mods he did to lighten the car and whats the weight of his S currently, I tryed looking on S2ki for this but had no luck :rolleye2:
I'd like to know this, too. Since he's posted here, maybe he'll tell us? I'd love to take off about 500 lbs off mine, but I'm afraid I need my creature comforts, so I won't remove that wet bar in the trunk. :laugh:

[Alacrity]

wow that was a lot of good info in one day! allright, so worse gas mileage with a new gear set... what's switching to an ap2 rear end get me?

and by the way- i cleared out all the carpet and the spare tire and tools in my trunk so its just bare metal. I lost about 30 pounds and gained a good 4 square feet of space in our notoriously spacious trunks...

[JonBoy]

The AP2 rear end is the same as the AP1 rear end, in terms of the drive ratio. It's a bit stronger, I believe, but that's it.

I've heard of a number of people that got BETTER mileage with gears, especially those that did mostly city driving. You don't have to run the car as hard to get up to speed, due to the extra mechanical advantage of shorter gearing.

[Jasonoff]

I'd like to know this, too. Since he's posted here, maybe he'll tell us? I'd love to take off about 500 lbs off mine, but I'm afraid I need my creature comforts, so I won't remove that wet bar in the trunk. :laugh:Maybe you need to search within to shed the weight :poke:

How much do kidneys weigh? :p

[Alacrity]

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i18/alacritae/halp.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i18/alacritae/funny_cat_pictures_033.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i18/alacritae/funny_cat_pictures_015.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i18/alacritae/whut-ian.jpg

i guess i'll have to drive someone's s2 with those gears! it's all so confusing...

[repiv]

Maybe you need to search within to shed the weight :poke:

How much do kidneys weigh? :p

I don't care how much you're offering, mine ain't for sale.:rolleyes:

[whitefun]

i drive an o5gpw. the 4.56 gears were to loud for my taste.(i enjoy my :rockon: sound system). the 4.77 i have now are rockin with a na car. oem quiet and a blast to drive. top end is about 130 but that is plenty for me. i highly recomend a shift beeper i you choose the 4.77 as the time between the first couple shifts is VERY SHORT.

[raymo19]

i drive an o5gpw. the 4.56 gears were to loud for my taste.(i enjoy my :rockon: sound system). the 4.77 i have now are rockin with a na car. oem quiet and a blast to drive. top end is about 130 but that is plenty for me. i highly recomend a shift beeper i you choose the 4.77 as the time between the first couple shifts is VERY SHORT.

My 4.57Rs are my sound system.:rockon:

AP1 radios are teh suck.:lol2:

[equinoxiq]

Is there any definitive table of the max speeds you get in each gear for the different final drive gear sets?

[repiv]

Is there any definitive table of the max speeds you get in each gear for the different final drive gear sets?

Plug numbers into this:

http://www.turnzero.com/technical_resources.php?resource=gear_calculator

[Jasonoff]

Plug numbers into this:

http://www.turnzero.com/technical_resources.php?resource=gear_calculator

Hummmm.. it's not working correctly ATM. When selecting different vehicles it's not changing the fields in FF or IE.

Edit: ya something is funky. It only accepts the first selection so If you want to see AP1 then AP2 after, close the page and reopen.

[S2KPUDDYDAD]

Hummmm.. it's not working correctly ATM. When selecting different vehicles it's not changing the fields in FF or IE.

Edit: ya something is funky. It only accepts the first selection so If you want to see AP1 then AP2 after, close the page and reopen.

Hit the reset at the bottom of the page that worked for me:thumbup:

[equinoxiq]

man i'd love to be able to do this one of these days....

[Jasonoff]

Hit the reset at the bottom of the page that worked for me:thumbup:That button doesn't work for me in firefox.

[Crazylarry85]

I have an 03 GPW.
I swapped out the 4.10diff for a friends Ricks 4.56 and its good and bad.

Good = Car is even more fun to drive because its much more responsive. Feels like you got that TQ : ). Helps when running from a low roll ( for all my race heads )

Bad = WHINE ! lol
Gas mileage on long drives is hit a bit. Full tank goes in about 292 to orlando when before I got 340 ?

I have always thought about selling my gears but then I would need another diff : (
So I just keep it

[Jasonoff]

In case anyone is interested. This is a chart of an AP1 with 4.56, AP2 Transmission, or both with a rear tires size = 255/40/17.

http://jasonoff.iroque.com/AP1GearingDiagram.gif

[Alacrity]

i'm surprised yet again with the amount of knowledge supplied on this forum...

[AP2_RR]

What 4.44 does everyone use? MotorKlasse or someone else?

[repiv]

What 4.44 does everyone use? MotorKlasse or someone else?
I was one of the first to put 4.44s in my S back in 2001. I have the J's and back then, it was the only game in town. I got royally hosed. Not feeling too bad, though. It was years before a cheaper alternative came along.

[Jasonoff]

I got royally hosed. Not feeling too bad, though. It was years before a cheaper alternative came along.You just HAVE to be the first kid on the block with the new toy don't you? :p

[AP2_RR]

The reason why I ask is that in this thread everyone says the 4.44 have no whine or it is like "oem" and the 4.56/.57 have a noticeable whine?

So is the actual gearing or the manufacture that makes the 4.44 have little/no noise?

[S2KPUDDYDAD]

The reason why I ask is that in this thread everyone says the 4.44 have no whine or it is like "oem" and the 4.56/.57 have a noticeable whine?

So is the actual gearing or the manufacture that makes the 4.44 have little/no noise?

The 4.56 and 57 are more aggressive gears and are not as mathematically correct as the 4.44 gear set this is why the whine.

All the gear sets have a slight whine but, with all the other noise in the car you can’t here it as you can with the 4.56 57.

The 4.44 and the 4.56 are very similar in performance.

[AP2_RR]

Thank you for the quick reply. I will be picking up 4.44s from Science of Speed soon..

Some also mention the 4.77 as OEM quite. I figure they are more mathematically correct as well?

[repiv]

Some also mention the 4.77 as OEM quite. I figure they are more mathematically correct as well?
Yes, this is odd. I've not heard of anyone with 4.77s having noticable gear whine. Now, S2KPUDDYDAD is the expert in this area, but what does "mathematically correct" really mean when it comes to gears? I was always told that the gear whine in the 4.5x was primarily due to the manufacturing process that Richmond uses to make these gears for our cars. By extrapolating from this, if J's were to have made them, they wouldn't whine at all. Or is this bad logic?

[Jasonoff]

This was pretty useful for me to help understand some of this crap.

http://www.gearsolutionsonline.com/articles/gearwhine0204.html

I know it doesn't answer your question specifically but it was a good read :)

[repiv]

This was pretty useful for me to help understand some of this crap.

http://www.gearsolutionsonline.com/articles/gearwhine0204.html

I know it doesn't answer your question specifically but it was a good read :)

That was a good read. According to that article, gear whine has little to do with gear "ratio".

[Jasonoff]

That was a good read. According to that article, gear whine has little to do with gear "ratio".Ya that's what I gathered from it.

SO possibly if J's did make the 4.56's they may be quiet?

[repiv]

Ya that's what I gathered from it.

SO possibly if J's did make the 4.56's they may be quiet?

Yeah, but they'd also cost a thousand bucks. :waa:

[AP2_RR]

From Science of Speed...

The 4.44 & 4.77 are OEM gears and thus no whine. The Richmond are thicker/stronger teeth and produce noises..

[JonBoy]

Stronger gears are actually quieter, in general. ;)

Gears make noises for all kinds of reasons, many of them related to manufacturing and installation issues (poor tooth spacing, bad finish, mismatched gears, improper backlash, etc, etc).

Design choices play a big part in noise as well. Design variables such as the helix angle (higher the angle, the quieter the gears generally are), contact ratio (higher contact ratio means less noise), face width (wider is generally better), backlash (more important when you have load reversals, due to impact loading), material (cast iron is better than steel, for instance), contact type (spur is a line contact, helical is a point contact), surface finish (smoother is quieter), and lubrication (or lack thereof) are all critical in how quiet gears are. Gear type (spur, helical, etc, etc) is also a major factor in noise.

[Jasonoff]

Anyone ever hear a car with straight cut gears? It's nuts.

[JonBoy]

A lot of race cars run straight cut gears. Stronger, easier to manufacture, and also lighter. The M3 I heard with them had no discernable intake or exhaust sound above 90 or 100 mph - it was all gear whine!

[repiv]

From Science of Speed...

The 4.44 & 4.77 are OEM gears and thus no whine. The Richmond are thicker/stronger teeth and produce noises..

How can these be "OEM"? The OEM gears are 4.10

[jcarlton]

Humm..

I'm adding and SC next season but going with 4.56/AP2 Trans this year. I'm not going with a highboost setup. Were the 4.44's too much only with the kind of power you're running now?

I had the 4.57s with a 320hp S/C, Great combo. I didn't get rid of the 4.57s until I went over 500 hp. Toooo much wheels spin. I have a fully built and cryoed 3.90 setup ready to go in but I am running a fully built and cryoed 4.10 setup unilt then.

[S2KPUDDYDAD]

Yes, this is odd. I've not heard of anyone with 4.77s having noticable gear whine. Now, S2KPUDDYDAD is the expert in this area, but what does "mathematically correct" really mean when it comes to gears? I was always told that the gear whine in the 4.5x was primarily due to the manufacturing process that Richmond uses to make these gears for our cars. By extrapolating from this, if J's were to have made them, they wouldn't whine at all. Or is this bad logic?

I am always learning so, not an expert, not ye t :)

"mathematically incorrect" is something I was told early on when I started doing this, I'm thinking I am misinformed :light: “According to that article, gear whine has little to do with gear "ratio".

The Richmond gears are thick cut gears and have fewer teeth both on the ring and pinion.
The angle that they are cut is straighter than that of the OEM gear sets.

I media blast them, tumble polish, and refinish to help make them operate more smoothly in the housing. I also set the up a little differently than the OEM sets also to alleviate some of the whine.

I have the 4.56 in my car right now (my third set) and the whine is only present at 48 to 52 MPH then goes away. It is faint and not annoying at all.

I have had a few 4.57s too and got them to set up pretty close to the same way as the 4.56 but, they are still a bit louder.

I have had 13 different rear diff setups in my car,

The 4.44s are so close in performance to the 4.56 I advise people using the car as a Daily Driver to go the rout of the 4.44 gear set.

[Jasonoff]

The 4.44s are so close in performance to the 4.56 I advise people using the car as a Daily Driver to go the rout of the 4.44 gear set.Humm... I for one don't care about the noise. (I have an invidia exhaust to prove it :p )

The 4.44's are cheaper than the 4.56 as well but I wouldn't want to regret not getting the 4.56 over a bit of noise and $140.

[whitemike711]

In case anyone is interested. This is a chart of an AP1 with 4.56, AP2 Transmission, or both with a rear tires size = 255/40/17.

http://jasonoff.iroque.com/AP1GearingDiagram.gif

am i reading this right? my ap1 stock can go 166mph??!!

[Jasonoff]

am i reading this right? my ap1 stock can go 166mph??!!But you only need to go 88mph :D

[repiv]

am i reading this right? my ap1 stock can go 166mph??!!

It's "geared" to go that fast, but a stock AP1 doesn't have enough power to go that fast. It only has the power to go about 150 on level ground, with no wind. It would need another ~125 bhp to get there.

[photodavo]

Not bad for a little 4 banger Honda. :D

[repiv]

Actually, it's pretty darned good, considering we've got a convertible with the aerodynamics of a barn door. There's not a lot of cars, regardless of price, that can do this. 150 is scary fast. I've up to about 140 on a motorcycle and I was just about freaking out over my licence if caught.