Royally Phawked

[RatedR]

Was driving to work just today and I saw the engine oil light go in and out. Thought that it would just be a fluke since it would go away. I was almost late so I thought I'd wait till I reached the parking lot at work before I took a look. On the way to work, I heard a pop noise and the oil is all gone. I shut off the motor IMMEDIATELY after that pop noise, I knew I was PHAWKED!!!!!

I can't find the drain plug and I know the cam gear bolt that goes through the head is gone, the upper cam gear is loose. Would there be any chance of me saving this motor by just replacing the timing chain components?

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/2311000-2311999/2311704_66.jpg

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http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/2311000-2311999/2311704_69.jpg


A few things you should know, I did maintenance on the car 4 days prior and the car was driving great.
When I got home after having the car towed, I saw my whole car port (apartment) covered in oil, standing oil.
That tells me that someone may have loosened my drain plug enough that my oil drained onto the ground.
During the 4 days that I drove it, it was working fine.

[repiv]

WOW! This is an amazing story. What kind of maintenance did you do? Are you saying someone purposely loosened your drain plug? It's not easy to do without jacking the car up and with the hood shut.
I can't imagine how the cam gear center bolt can just disappear without having been untorqued. Was this part of the maintenance you did?

If your cam gear slipped and your valve timing went nuts, it is likely that your valves have struck the tops of the pistons. At this point in time, all you can do is to fix the cam parts, re-align all the timing marks to the way they ought to be, put oil back in and give it a try. It's anybody's guess if the engine is still OK.

[RatedR]

Everything I did is as follows:

Drained all fluids (coolant, engine oil, tranny, diff, clutch and brake lines)
Spark Plugs
Adjusted valves
Water Pump Replacement
Serpentine Belt Replacement
Oil Filter.

I never touched the cam gear sprocket.
I pretty much have an idea of what is good and bad, but I've never had an upper timing chain bolt break on me. From what I can see with the valve cover off, the valves are off timing and the alen head bolt that's in the front upper timing chain cover is empty. There are shards of metal that look like shavings of some silver parts (probably the bolt).

I know it sound funny to think that someone loosened the drain bolt, but to not have any signs of leakage for 3 good running days and have no oil on the 4th sounds even funnier doesn't it?


PS - If anyone in the Bay Area can part w/ an AP1 motor for a REALLY GOOD CAUSE and a cheap price, I would love them for it!

[repiv]

I realize this is all academic now, but is it possible that you either didn't use a crush washer on the oil drain bolt or didn't remove the washer and installed another one on top of the old one?

I still suggest you try to get the valve timing back to spec and check the compression in all cylinders before giving up on the motor.

[RatedR]

Thanks for the feedback.
Quick question though, if you've ever removed the head, considering the top timing chain sprocket is no longer bolted to the head, would I just be able to remove the cams and head bolts and lift up the head from the block? I'd like to take a look at the valves before I continue w/ the timing chain....

[repiv]

Thanks for the feedback.
Quick question though, if you've ever removed the head, considering the top timing chain sprocket is no longer bolted to the head, would I just be able to remove the cams and head bolts and lift up the head from the block? I'd like to take a look at the valves before I continue w/ the timing chain....

I've never removed the head. Perhaps someone else will come along to address this question.

[Hawkeye]

That sucks.

I have little doubt your motor is gone. Driving without oil, even for a very short time is catastrofic to your engine bearings, cam lobes, etc.. Since most of your oil is in your car port on the ground you were basically without oil for whatever amount of time it ran before you shut it down.

The missing cam bolt might be a result of your engine tearing itself to pieces, improper torque, using a bolt that is single use only then requires replacement, poor parts prep (cleaning) and or lack of locktite (if required).

I doubt anyone sabotaged your car since it would be odd for them to go to the trouble of removing the cam bolt too.

I suspect you didn't tighten down the oil drain plug or did it to less than proper torque. It just took a few days for it to work itself out.

[bimdub]

That sucks.

I have little doubt your motor is gone. Driving without oil, even for a very short time is catastrofic to your engine bearings, cam lobes, etc.. Since most of your oil is in your car port on the ground you were basically without oil for whatever amount of time it ran before you shut it down.

The missing cam bolt might be a result of your engine tearing itself to pieces, improper torque, using a bolt that is single use only then requires replacement, poor parts prep (cleaning) and or lack of locktite (if required).

I doubt anyone sabotaged your car since it would be odd for them to go to the trouble of removing the cam bolt too.

I suspect you didn't tighten down the oil drain plug or did it to less than proper torque. It just took a few days for it to work itself out.



me and my wife bought a Subaru brand new! it was on its 3rd oil change 12,000 miles.....I was unable to get into the dealer and took it to a shop that I used to work at.

I payed 30 dollars to have them change the oil and filter.

took my 1400 mile trip with no trouble.

drove another two weeks with no trouble.

went to go on another trip.....

75 miles out of town...stop at a rest stop.....walking back to the car....notice oil puddle.....examine it....its warm.....look closer.....the drain plug is only one turn in!

call the shop.....tighten the drain plug......check oil.....still in the safe area......drive car to shop......examine car.....make them clean the underneath of the car......they offer to comp me future services.....I say forget it....and never go back.....

moral of the story........the drain plug CAN work its way loose.....it CAN take time.....fresh gasket and correct torque is a must! and stay away from "iffy lube"

[Hawkeye]

This reminds me, I changed the oil in my civic a couple of weeks back and didn't know it required a crush gasket (bought it used and never knew it required one as it didn't have one before.) I'll have to keep an eye on it.:nervous:

[kwando]

i had two oil line failures on my turbo S2K, engine was shut down immediately, and it appears to be sound.

i cannot comment on the cam bolt.

[RatedR]

I never touched the cam bolt so it wouldnt be a torque issue w/ the cam bolt.
I do think that it broke itself due to the stress of having the motor run w/o oil.
Regardless of the corolla that was revving on me as I went into my car port last night,
I have to say that I did mess the motor up given the fact that I ignored the warning light
thinking I could fix it at work.

To move on, if anyone has removed the motor before, I've read through the manual and done multiple swaps with 240sx motors, is there any way to swap the motor by removing the engine and transmission as a set other than separately? I also saw that removal of the steering bracket from the steering rack is necessary, is there any way to keep from removing that?

From what I've gathered after taking a look at the situation, I need a new motor, its a given. Even if I took the time to re-align the timing chain and cleaned the motor, fired her up, I don't think the valves would've been fine, let alone the bearings. So basically, I'm ROYALLY PHAWKED~!!!!!

[alvanderp]

You cannot R&R the engine with the trans attached, the trans is way too long. Follow the procedure in the Helms for removing the engine. You have to get the car on stands, support the front subframe with a jack, and back out the 4 main subframe bolts 3 inches, then reduce support from the jack to allow the cradle to sag. This will allow you to get access to the top 2 trans mount bolts and separate the engine from the trans and take out the engine by itself. I have never had to mess with any of the steering components when R&Ring an engine on an S2k, and I have worked on a couple of them now.

I am lost as to how the idler gear bolt came off, I have never seen anything like that before. Unless the crank seized(which you would have noticed), there would be no way for an oiling issue to put the kind of axial force necessary on that bolt to break it. But I would agree with Repiv, its much more likely that you had an old crush washer, double stacked crush washer, or no crush washer on your drainbolt, or had simply just overtorqued it and spun the threads than someone jacked up your car to intentionally loosen your drain plug. Its quite possible that with any of the above the oil leak wouldnt start right away.

Depending on how long the engine ran with no oil, your bearings may be fine and all you have to do is headwork. Like repiv mentioned, the only way to know is to either completely dissassemble the head and engine, or to put oil in it, get the cams back in time and start it up.

You need to remove the idler gear assembly to remove the timing chain, so assuming the chain is loose and the auto-tensioner and idler have been removed, yes you can unbolt the head. I would suggest getting it on a stand before doing so though, it will be significantly easier than trying to do it in the car. You are asking for trouble with it still in the car.

[RatedR]

Thanks for the info, after looking around, I've got a pretty good deal that I'm going with. Since I'm getting all the work done, I'm gonna need a new clutch. Any recommendations repiv?

[repiv]

Thanks for the info, after looking around, I've got a pretty good deal that I'm going with. Since I'm getting all the work done, I'm gonna need a new clutch. Any recommendations repiv?

I'd go with the OEM disc and a heavy duty pressure plate (ACT). If yours is a street car, there's no need to go with the puck type of clutch. Those are hard to modulate for normal street driving.
If money is no object, you should consider getting the HTGuy kit, which includes the lightweight flywheel, OEM disc, HDPP and new OEM release bearing. That's what I'm running, but mine came with the Comptech flywheel. I think HTGuy uses another brand now. This would be great for a NA car and the car would be ready for FI if you ever decide to go that route.

[RatedR]

U know, I looked for that kit, but I couldn't find it on his site, does he use his own pressure plate? How much is "money is no object"?.....I also tried searching around for an aftermarket pp w/ stock disc, but it seems I'd have to peice those together......

[repiv]

Here you go ........................

http://hardtopguy.com/store/product.php?productid=234&cat=0&page=1

He now goes with the ACT lightweight flywheel.

[hardtopguy]

its 1075.00 for the ACT Pressure plate, ACT lightened flywheel, OEM disc, OEM Pilot bearing and OEM throw out bearing. You can get it with or without the flywheel or you can get the OEM flywheel. It just depends on your budget.
It's found here:
http://hardtopguy.com/store/product.php?productid=234&cat=0&page=1

I don't know how you missed it. It's on the front page.

As far as the engine goes, I've seen a F20c go 30 miles without oil and be fine. The place where I used to work did an oil change on one and fogot to put oil in it. The customer called me when they got home and wondered why the oil light was on.
Good luck on the motor, email me if I can help in any way.

[RatedR]

I didn't go 30 miles, more like 8. The things that keeps me from trying to fix this motor are all the shards of metal in the head right now, the broken cam idler bolt and the washer between the head and the sprocket is down in the bottom of the timing chain components somewhere, if it didn't get shredded. The bolt pretty much seized and broke in half due to stress/heat. I've seen it once before on a 240sx w/ poor lubrication. I'd much rather start another motor w/ peace of mind.

Jeff - I coudn't get the clutch kit because I typed it in your search engine.

[RatedR]

You cannot R&R the engine with the trans attached, the trans is way too long. Follow the procedure in the Helms for removing the engine. You have to get the car on stands, support the front subframe with a jack, and back out the 4 main subframe bolts 3 inches, then reduce support from the jack to allow the cradle to sag. This will allow you to get access to the top 2 trans mount bolts and separate the engine from the trans and take out the engine by itself. I have never had to mess with any of the steering components when R&Ring an engine on an S2k, and I have worked on a couple of them now.


After looking under the car and reading the manual left and right, I'm just curious as to how you did not touch the steering linkage when removing the motor. You'd have to literally drop the ending 3 inches, which would rip the steering rack from the steering column unless you remove that bracket. Any info you can provide as to how I can pull the motor w/o the steering being disconnected would be GREATLY APPRECIATED! (If I sound the least bit sarcastic, please be assured that I'm serious, I tend to give people the impression that I'm.....well...sarcastic)

[s2ksuzuka]

I'd go with the OEM disc and a heavy duty pressure plate (ACT). If yours is a street car, there's no need to go with the puck type of clutch. Those are hard to modulate for normal street driving.
If money is no object, you should consider getting the HTGuy kit, which includes the lightweight flywheel, OEM disc, HDPP and new OEM release bearing. That's what I'm running, but mine came with the Comptech flywheel. I think HTGuy uses another brand now. This would be great for a NA car and the car would be ready for FI if you ever decide to go that route.


Ditto, way back @ 15k when the oem pressure plate started to fail (no abuse on the friction plate) I went with the act pressure plate, oem friction disc, oem throwout bearing and a comptech flywheel. Many like the toda fly wheel, I chose the comptech because it can be turned (the toda can not)

Good luck getting her running again. I almost lost a wheel on the highway...600 miles after I left home, because I didn't re-check the torque on the wheel lugs.....
sometimes we take things for granted ....

Mitch

[RatedR]

As an update, if the shops I'm talking to does not pick this car up by Wednesday the latest, I'm going to be performing the swap myself. Just out of curiousity, how many would like to have the proceedure caught on video? I've already disconnected most of the wiring from the motor, but that's all self explanitory. I've seen pics all over the net, but I do have access to a digi cam that's also a video recorder. Wouldn't take me much to ask my friend to tape it, a little edit here and there, then we can add that to the list of reference this site has. (with all the appropriate disclaimers of course)

[repiv]

Any video documentation of this nature would always be of interest to the users of this forum. Contact one of the site's admins. They'll tell you any limitations to size and format and they'll also tell you if they'll host it on the site's server.

[alvanderp]

After looking under the car and reading the manual left and right, I'm just curious as to how you did not touch the steering linkage when removing the motor. You'd have to literally drop the ending 3 inches, which would rip the steering rack from the steering column unless you remove that bracket. Any info you can provide as to how I can pull the motor w/o the steering being disconnected would be GREATLY APPRECIATED! (If I sound the least bit sarcastic, please be assured that I'm serious, I tend to give people the impression that I'm.....well...sarcastic)

My apologies I misread your original note on the steering components when writing my initial response. You do have to disconnect the linkage as well as the harness that comes from the EPS unit before you drop the subframe. You do have a Helms manual correct? All the steps are well documented in the manual.

[repiv]

When I did my clutch, I only disconnected the steering at the U-joint. I was able to leave the wiring harnesses to the EPS connected.

[alvanderp]

When I did my clutch, I only disconnected the steering at the U-joint. I was able to leave the wiring harnesses to the EPS connected.

The couple times I have done it, it looked like the harness might bind, so I disconnected it just to be safe. I am not totally surprised you could get away without disconnecting it, it was more of a "just in case" item for me.

[RatedR]

I dont have a helms manual, I found the actually Honda manual online in PDF form. That's what I'm going by. Either way, I have the shop I'm purchasing the motor from picking up the car on Wednesday, looks like I can't video tape the proceedure after all.

[RatedR]

The guy doing the swap backed out one more time, sick of this flakiness, so I decided to do it myself. Quick question, the factory manual states I have to replace the 6 sub-frame bolts that you loosen to lower the cradle. Viper, did you replace those bolts? I feel like they can be re-used, but anyone who's done the transmission change before can chime in, the info would be greatly appreciated....

[repiv]

The guy doing the swap backed out one more time, sick of this flakiness, so I decided to do it myself. Quick question, the factory manual states I have to replace the 6 sub-frame bolts that you loosen to lower the cradle. Viper, did you replace those bolts? I feel like they can be re-used, but anyone who's done the transmission change before can chime in, the info would be greatly appreciated....

I re-used them. However, to ensure the threads aren't damaged when turning them (both out and in), support the cradle on a floor jack, unscrew the bolts a bit at a time, lower the jack. When putting the cradle back up, lift cradle using the jack, snug up the bolts, then torque. This way, there is minimal weight on the threads during this procedure. This is a time when the threads are most suseptible to stretching and crossing. As an extra precaution, before screwing the bolts back up after the job, use a bit of oil on the threads (like 3-in-1). This will help them to thread smoothly. I've had such bolts strip due to the uneven pressures that may be present in such framework.

[RatedR]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Let me get a few things in order:

S2K is definitely a "Friendly - User" forum (meaning the people using the forums are more friendly than the other internet trolls out there)

The support from our sponsors (namely Jeff from HTG) is definitely appreciated, Jeff's been 110% helpful and a great resource. I would definitely check with his stock before ordering anywhere else, even if there's a price difference.

I'm definitely saving to get a lifetime membership, but after I've paid for the credit card bills I've ran up to get my BABY running again.

In other words, THANKS EVERYONE~!!!

PS - I'll try to have my friend take as many pics as possible, but I've done some prep work to make my swap easier, I'll try to take pics on install, same thing.

[Hawkeye]

Better check and make sure those bolts aren't torque to yield (use once only).

[RatedR]

torque to yield bolts usually come from head bolts, but thanks for the info. I'll make sure they aren't stretched, another indication of tty bolts.

[Hawkeye]

I have torque to yield bolts all over the chassis of my 05 GTO. I replaced the suspension bushings with Pedders and had to replace all the bolts per the manual.

The shop manual should tell you if this is the case.

[RatedR]

Well, going by the shop manual, they're to be replaced. I was asking REPIV because he's performed the swap before. Either way, I can always swap the bolts out one-by-one later on, not a major priority. I'll have to see the condition of the bolts and the threads, but last time I checked, the 19 mm bolts torque down to 30-40 pounds. I'll ask one of the techs at the dealer when I pick up my rear main seal.

[Hawkeye]

Bolts are cheap.

[repiv]

I should have issued a "disclaimer" in that in my case, I re-used the cradle bolts. I wouldn't preach to anyone to do the same and each individual must use his own judgement. There are many nuts and bolts on this that the service manual recommends to discard and replace. Some people do and some people don't. So far, I have not heard of any catastrophic failure as a result of re-using a nut or bolt so long as they have not been damaged in the process of doing the work.

[bish79]

Bolts are cheap.

I agree with this. I replaced my bolts as the manual suggested when I did my clutch. I can't remember what they were, maybe $5 to $10 each. I remember they seemed salty, but I figured not as salty as dropping out your subframe in the middle of an autocross.

[Hawkeye]

These bolts are probably designed to stretch which helps keep them locked into place. I've seen head bolts that did the same thing and they are supposed to be replaced after that first stretch.

[RatedR]

Got through the extraction portion, the engine's in the shop floor, just waiting for a replacement broken engine mount. After inspecting the current bolts, I returned the new bolts I ordered. The bolts are fine. I've also talked to a clutch tech who's done them left and right, he's always re-used them and has had no problems.

The reason I returned it was because I didn't see the need to replace it. If it aint broke, dont fix it. But dont go off of what I said.....just me.....
And after $2100 for a motor, $800 for a clutch kit, and paying $500 for shop time to do the work myself, I think I'll have to replace those bolts after I get a couple of paychecks or two.....

[RatedR]

I'm finally DONE~!!!! Car runs sweet~! Quick question for the AP1 owners though, I could've sworn that my older motor engaged VTEC at 5800-5900. This motor is smooth and engages around 6300-6400. Am I wrong? I've looked into the vtec solenoid and filter, nothing wrong with the two......

[Stratocaster]

You are wrong, it engages at 6400.

[RatedR]

Sweet, then there's nothing else I need to fix!

[bimdub]

You are wrong, it engages at 6400.

Sweet, then there's nothing else I need to fix!

not exactly, altitude has a play here! at sea level its closer to 6K for my AP1 and when I go to Lake Tahoe ~7000 ft its actually a lot closer to 6800rpms.....