2nd gear going......

[Jesuis]

Things are not well with the S. First, my CV joints go (swapping them was a temporary quick fix), and now I think 2nd gear is dieing on me.

My gearbox has always been audible in neutral at idle (mechanical humming sound, quits when clutch depressed), but I believe that is common. Lately, however, the gearbox noise became slightly louder. I thought it was due to the colder weather, since it seemed to go back to normal after warming up.

Tonight however, while driving home, I noticed a much louder sound when in 2nd gear, very noticeable. My untrained ear thinks it sounds like a worn out bearing; kind of a dull muffled rattle. It also makes much more noise in neutral with the engine idling than before, but the sound when driving in 2nd is much worse. It still shifts fine (for now), but I am very worried my gearbox will soon go out.

Questions:
Is my gearbox shot? (I think I already know the answer....)
Any idea what the problem is? (worn out bearing?)
What's the best place to get a replacement gearbox? (MY03)
Is the AP2 box directly swappable with the AP1 box?

[Ulrich]

No, I cannot hand-carry a gearbox onto the plane. Smaller parts might be possible, if you tell me early enough. ;)

[hayabusa1285]

dido on the ap2 gear box match up....

[Looter]

:think: How long since you changed your fluid...????

[Jesuis]

:think: How long since you changed your fluid...????

Off the top of my head, around 10k miles ago. I bought the car 12k miles ago, and changed shortly thereafter. It's an '03, and now has 42k miles

[Looter]

:rolleyes: If it were up to me...before I changed-out the gear box...I would change-out the fluid again, just to see if that takes care of the problem....Lots cheaper than a new gear box...and you are going to have to put fluid in the new one, anyhow. repiv will jump in here before long...Let's get his opinion.....

[uwimage]

:rolleyes: If it were up to me...before I changed-out the gear box...I would change-out the fluid again, just to see if that takes care of the problem....Lots cheaper than a new gear box...and you are going to have to put fluid in the new one, anyhow. repiv will jump in here before long...Let's get his opinion.....

I agree...it would also give you the chance to see if there are any metal shavings in there....and now I'll sit back and wait for the master :D

[rioyellows2k]

is the car a certified Honda?

[Ulrich]

is the car a certified Honda?
The car is in the Netherlands, so I doubt that would make a difference. ;)

[repiv]

These fellas have you covered. I would have suggested the same thing. Try the fluid change first. I would even suggest an overfill of about 200cc to 250cc. To do this, dump in all but about 200cc of the second liter. Drop the car to level with the fill bolt off. Let it drip out till it drips no more. Jack it up on the left side and push the remaining fluid in. Put the fill bolt back in before dropping the car. Go with the new generation of Honda MTF is it's available in Europe. Otherwise, the old stuff isn't so bad.
Have all the equipment ready at home "on standby". Do a "hot" change. Go for a good drive till the tranny is hot and all the fluid and crud is churned up. Go home and immediately pull the fill and drain plugs. This way, you may see any big particles come out that may normally have time to get caught and held by the magnet.

Any new and abnormal noises in a tranny is not a good sign. How bad it is, won't be certain till you do the fluid change. If it's bad, the noise will still be there or it will go away temporarily, then come back just as bad as before.

Second gear in your tranny may in fact be worn, but this may be in combination with the output shaft bearing, which has been reported of late now that the car has been around for a while. If it's second gear, it'll be expensive to take the tranny apart. If it's the rear bearing, this can be done with the tranny in the car - not too bad.

I've done the AP2 transplant into my AP1. You only have to remove the output flange from your old tranny and screw it onto the AP2 tranny. The rest is a direct bolt on and you'll love the "grunt" in the first 4 gears. Too bad you don't live near me. I have a perfectly good AP1 tranny sitting here. We could "deal".

[hayabusa1285]

so to jack the thread but as for the ap2 tranny in the ap1 what would i gain as far as accualtion in big notiable difference? would i have longer gears or shorter gears than i do i do now?

[repiv]

so to jack the thread but as for the ap2 tranny in the ap1 what would i gain as far as accualtion in big notiable difference? would i have longer gears or shorter gears than i do i do now?

accualtion .............. Not familiar with this word, not in dictionary. But I'll try an answer anyway.

The AP2 tranny has a secondary reduction gear that is approx. 4% shorter (numerically higher). This gives the same mechanical advantage "as if" you had 4.264 FD (final drive) in the rear diff. Of course, we all know that the stock FD is 4.10. However, this is only in the first 4 gears because Honda put in different 5th and 6th gears (taller, numerically lower) so that highway cruising rpm would not suffer. The simple answer is that in the first 4 gears, the acceleration will be more brisk, but you'll have to shift sooner. This is what I meant when I said you'd have more low end "grunt".
Quite a few owners have installed a different FD in the rear diff. Rick's 4.57s is the most well known of these. I've got 4.44 and some have 4.77. I won't get into the finer aspects of this. There are many threads discussing the details of "gears".
Changing rear gears is an old drag racer trick. When you've bumped up the power as much as you dare or can afford, the final mod is the FD. You don't increase your HP or torque to speak of, but you use what you've got more efficiently.

[SondraS2k]

Bummer, Erik! I have no knowledge to impart, but I do empathize. I hope you have it fixed and back on the road/track soon!

[hayabusa1285]

sorry my bad i meant acceleration, but the whole 12 hour day at work had me a lil tired an di forgot to fix it lol.

but what i was thinking tho even tho i they are shorter for the ap2 rev a grand higher i did know if that would even it back out to what the ap1 tranny was any ways. but i guess i think what ur saying is that its the FD where the big difference is

[Jesuis]

These fellas have you covered. I would have suggested the same thing. Try the fluid change first. I would even suggest an overfill of about 200cc to 250cc. To do this, dump in all but about 200cc of the second liter. Drop the car to level with the fill bolt off. Let it drip out till it drips no more. Jack it up on the left side and push the remaining fluid in. Put the fill bolt back in before dropping the car. Go with the new generation of Honda MTF is it's available in Europe. Otherwise, the old stuff isn't so bad.
Have all the equipment ready at home "on standby". Do a "hot" change. Go for a good drive till the tranny is hot and all the fluid and crud is churned up. Go home and immediately pull the fill and drain plugs. This way, you may see any big particles come out that may normally have time to get caught and held by the magnet.

Any new and abnormal noises in a tranny is not a good sign. How bad it is, won't be certain till you do the fluid change. If it's bad, the noise will still be there or it will go away temporarily, then come back just as bad as before.

Second gear in your tranny may in fact be worn, but this may be in combination with the output shaft bearing, which has been reported of late now that the car has been around for a while. If it's second gear, it'll be expensive to take the tranny apart. If it's the rear bearing, this can be done with the tranny in the car - not too bad.

I've done the AP2 transplant into my AP1. You only have to remove the output flange from your old tranny and screw it onto the AP2 tranny. The rest is a direct bolt on and you'll love the "grunt" in the first 4 gears. Too bad you don't live near me. I have a perfectly good AP1 tranny sitting here. We could "deal".


Thanks for the info. I was planning on doing the oil change and checking for metal shavings. I am 99% confident this will not help the situation, since it got real bad real fast. I'm no expert, but I understand how GB's work, and I really think it sounds like a worn-out 2nd gear bearing. Hums when not engaged, and very loud hum/rattle when engaged. I imagine that a gear with a worn out bearing under load is no longer centered properly, causing excessive noise through improper gear meshing (and less noise when not under load).

If I find no metal shavings, but the problem is still there, I am going to drive -carefully- to my parents' place 100 miles away, where I have access to more tools.
You're probably going to call me crazy, but I think I'll drop the gearbox, take it apart and try to figure out the problem. If I manage to fix it, great; if I don't, well, I needed a new gearbox anyway. I know it's not the easiest project for a semi-noob mechanic like myself, but hey, now's as a good a time as any to learn how to repair a gearbox.


Viper, if I end up with a hopeless pile of broken gearbox parts, would you be interested in selling me your AP1 box? If you don't want to ship to Holland, would you consider shipping it to Houston, Texas? I can have it shipped from there to Holland fairly easily.

[repiv]

Viper, if I end up with a hopeless pile of broken gearbox parts, would you be interested in selling me your AP1 box? If you don't want to ship to Holland, would you consider shipping it to Houston, Texas? I can have it shipped from there to Holland fairly easily.
Before I bought my AP2 tranny new, I tried to ship one from Hecash. I think he's in Illinois. The hassles of bringing something that heavy across the border was immense. I gave up. It was a lot of work for Harry, too. It's just not worth it for buyer or seller. The cost started at around $500.00 and that's not even taking brokerage into consideration. Sorry, but I'm afraid my old tranny will only serve as a spare unless someone in my own area wants it. International shipping on this on a private sale would be a nightmare.

PS. You may be better off having a Honda dealer do this work. If you take it apart yourself, there is a distinct possibility that more damage will be done. It may cost some money to have a professional do it but if you break the tranny even worse in the process, a replacement tranny will cost even more. A Pro may have a better chance of fixing it. It's always a gamble.

[H20]

Thanks for the info. I was planning on doing the oil change and checking for metal shavings. I am 99% confident this will not help the situation, since it got real bad real fast. I'm no expert, but I understand how GB's work, and I really think it sounds like a worn-out 2nd gear bearing. Hums when not engaged, and very loud hum/rattle when engaged. I imagine that a gear with a worn out bearing under load is no longer centered properly, causing excessive noise through improper gear meshing (and less noise when not under load).

If I find no metal shavings, but the problem is still there, I am going to drive -carefully- to my parents' place 100 miles away, where I have access to more tools.
You're probably going to call me crazy, but I think I'll drop the gearbox, take it apart and try to figure out the problem. If I manage to fix it, great; if I don't, well, I needed a new gearbox anyway. I know it's not the easiest project for a semi-noob mechanic like myself, but hey, now's as a good a time as any to learn how to repair a gearbox.


Viper, if I end up with a hopeless pile of broken gearbox parts, would you be interested in selling me your AP1 box? If you don't want to ship to Holland, would you consider shipping it to Houston, Texas? I can have it shipped from there to Holland fairly easily.
Sounds like a bad throwout bearing to me..if they even have one. Might be in combo with other issues though.

[alvanderp]

I would think throwout bearing noise would happen in any gear, not just 2nd.

Jesuis - dissassembling a synchronized trans is not for the faint of heart. There are alot of pieces that can be very intimidating the first time and can mess things up if not reassembled correctly. That said, its definetely something a DIY mechanic can accomplish with the right education and tools. I would at east do some reading so you know what you are looking at first, and pay close attention to the Helms(factory service manual). This is a book I highly recommend reading if you can get ahold of it: http://www.amazon.com/Rebuild-Modify-Transmission-Motorbooks-Workshop/dp/0760320470 It will help you greatly in understanding what you are looking at while you are doing the work.

[JonBoy]

Before I bought my AP2 tranny new, I tried to ship one from Hecash. I think he's in Illinois. The hassles of bringing something that heavy across the border was immense. I gave up. It was a lot of work for Harry, too. It's just not worth it for buyer or seller. The cost started at around $500.00 and that's not even taking brokerage into consideration. Sorry, but I'm afraid my old tranny will only serve as a spare unless someone in my own area wants it. International shipping on this on a private sale would be a nightmare.

PS. You may be better off having a Honda dealer do this work. If you take it apart yourself, there is a distinct possibility that more damage will be done. It may cost some money to have a professional do it but if you break the tranny even worse in the process, a replacement tranny will cost even more. A Pro may have a better chance of fixing it. It's always a gamble.

Since you're in Calgary, couldn't you just drive it down across the border and ship it from there? Much easier for customs, since you can pay right there at the border.

Dad has brought a ton of pieces up from the USA to Canada and it's never been a problem if you're taking them across in person, especially with a proper bill of sale.

I realize a tranny is pretty big and heavy but with a pickup and a pallet or large wooden box, it shouldn't be that bad.

Just a thought.....

[alvanderp]

Since you're in Calgary, couldn't you just drive it down across the border and ship it from there? Much easier for customs, since you can pay right there at the border.

Dad has brought a ton of pieces up from the USA to Canada and it's never been a problem if you're taking them across in person, especially with a proper bill of sale.

I realize a tranny is pretty big and heavy but with a pickup and a pallet or large wooden box, it shouldn't be that bad.

Just a thought.....

Nevermind the fact its like 150 miles to the US border from Calgary, you realize whats directly south of Alberta right? Montana. Just a guess, but I dont think there's a UPS store in Babb, Montana. ;) In fact a quick search finds the closest option in Columbia Falls, some 300 miles from Calgary.

Now, Dave is a pretty nice guy, but I sure wouldnt expect him to drive 150 miles each way(much less 300) to ship me a transmission. Although even with gas paid, it would likely be cheaper and less hassle to ship as long as it was going to a US destination.

[Jesuis]

I would think throwout bearing noise would happen in any gear, not just 2nd.

Jesuis - dissassembling a synchronized trans is not for the faint of heart. There are alot of pieces that can be very intimidating the first time and can mess things up if not reassembled correctly. That said, its definetely something a DIY mechanic can accomplish with the right education and tools. I would at east do some reading so you know what you are looking at first, and pay close attention to the Helms(factory service manual). This is a book I highly recommend reading if you can get ahold of it: http://www.amazon.com/Rebuild-Modify-Transmission-Motorbooks-Workshop/dp/0760320470 It will help you greatly in understanding what you are looking at while you are doing the work.


Thanks for the tips. I have disassembled and played with old gearboxes before, just to find out how they work. I know what I'm up against. However, I'm a very technical person, and have no problem understanding mechanical stuff. I know it's a challenge, but I give myself a decent chance. Part of it is just wanting to find out if I'm able to do it on my own.
Plus: my father has tons of experience working on cars, and has rebuilt gearboxes before. He's my backup plan if I'm up to my ears in gears and synchro rings :)

[Jesuis]

Before I bought my AP2 tranny new, I tried to ship one from Hecash. I think he's in Illinois. The hassles of bringing something that heavy across the border was immense. I gave up. It was a lot of work for Harry, too. It's just not worth it for buyer or seller. The cost started at around $500.00 and that's not even taking brokerage into consideration. Sorry, but I'm afraid my old tranny will only serve as a spare unless someone in my own area wants it. International shipping on this on a private sale would be a nightmare.

PS. You may be better off having a Honda dealer do this work. If you take it apart yourself, there is a distinct possibility that more damage will be done. It may cost some money to have a professional do it but if you break the tranny even worse in the process, a replacement tranny will cost even more. A Pro may have a better chance of fixing it. It's always a gamble.

Viper, understandable you don't want the hassle. (I was kind of expecting that answer). I am going to get some quotes from some mechanics here, but part of it is just wanting to find out if I can do this myself. Whether it works out or not, it's definitely a learning experience.