Anyone tried an f22 w/ AP1 ecu?

[RatedR]

Just got through helping my sister shop for a car my mom would buy her, ended up w/ an '06 civic. Not bad, but while I was waiting on them for the paperwork, I asked the salesman to let me take out the AP2. Now I love my car (AP1), but I was kinda disappointed w/ the power/redline of the ap2. So I was wondering if the ECU's would work if you swapped them so you can still have the lovable 9k redline?

[ninja]

I can see why you would be dissapointed with the lower redline, but I don't know why you would be dissapointed with *more* power across most of the powerband.

[repiv]

The AP2 actually has more torque than an AP1 as well as having more aggressive gearing in the first 4 gears, so your disappointment is only with respect to the lower redline and that's mostly in your head.
Sure, you can put an AP1 ECU into an AP2, but why would you risk destroying the engine? The stroke is longer to get that extra 200 cc of displacement. This means that piston speeds reach more or less the same at 8000 rpm as it did at 9000 rpm in the 2.0L. That extra 1000 rpm doesn't change the piston speeds arithmetically, but changes it exponentially. Without fortifying a few engine bits before jacking up the redline, it won't last long. Did you think Honda lowered the redline for no good reason? ;)

[Vorlon]

Actually I had the same thought when I drove a MY07, the drive by wire system takes a little while to "learn" or break in. After about 500 miles it feels like like an s2k should.

[CB750]

Actually I had the same thought when I drove a MY07, the drive by wire system takes a little while to "learn" or break in. After about 500 miles it feels like like an s2k should.

Please detail what you had to "learn" or break in with drive by wire. My 06' S2000 is the second Honda I own with drive by wire, and the transformation from Non DBW to DBW was seamless to me when compared to other Honda's I have owned. If Honda didn't advertise it and If I never looked under the hood I would never know I had it.

[Vorlon]

I wanted to trade in my 05 for an 07. So I go to the dealership and test drive a nice NFR 07.... I felt a pretty noticeable difference in acceleration and throttle response. When the salesman asked me how I like it, I responded with "actually im a bit disappointed." We spoke with another guy who seemed like he knew his stuff and he said the DBW system has to "learn" how the car/ driver work. He said after 500+ miles I would notice a big change in performance.

Not trashing the 06's mind you, Id love to get one once there is a compatible turbo for them. Again this is just what I was told...

[Slambo]

:laugh: Too true

Please detail what you had to "learn" or break in with drive by wire. My 06' S2000 is the second Honda I own with drive by wire, and the transformation from Non DBW to DBW was seamless to me when compared to other Honda's I have owned. If Honda didn't advertise it and If I never looked under the hood I would never know I had it.

[repiv]

We spoke with another guy who seemed like he knew his stuff and he said the DBW system has to "learn" how the car/ driver work. He said after 500+ miles I would notice a big change in performance.
I'm going to have to respond by saying that it's appears as though this "other" guy didn't really know his "stuff" either. A DBW throttle system doesn't "learn" anything. It simply responds to pedal position and rate of deflection. Unless the stability control kicks in, all it does is move the throttle body flap in accordance to what your gas foot is doing. It's the ECU that "learns" and depending upon the road conditions and how you drive, it may or may not intervene. But then, don't the new cars have an OFF switch for the VSA?
If one considers that not being allowed to spin tires or to able fishtail at will as "less performance", then this is driver perception and not really an "issue or problem" of throttle response or power delivery. This is to do with how Honda designed safety into the car so fewer idiots would hurt themselves and others, as well documented by history. When some people first test drive the newer S2000's, they tend to bag on the car or the very least, drive it with some "enthusiasm". This generally results in drive tires getting over their limits of adhesion. VSA doesn't allow this and kicks in. That's the computer making you back off. Then the driver "thinks" the car isn't as powerful.

[RatedR]

Don't get me wrong, I loved the torque, I'm aware of the changes and that the "Powers that Be" at Honda made that decision of 8k for redline w/ the best intentions. I still love the platform, but the impression I got from the AP2 is more of a "luxury" type (think volkswagen or audi engine response), the vtec kicks on too smooth. The reason I loved the AP1 is below the 5500 range, I got a mostly "economy" feel from the motor. Then the vtec kicks in and it lets loose. AP2 - Smooth vtec. AP1-ANGRY vtec. I like my women MAD, makes the orgasm that much more intense.

Now I remember on Youtube, they had a race w/ Tsuchiya,Orido and this other guy, all s2ks. The ap1, ap2 and a modded ap1. The modded ap1 was good, but the ap2 was beating the ap1. Then there's this other video of Tsuchiya and another driver w/ just stock ap1 and ap2, of course the ap2 won, but the ap1 was actually faster in the entry speed at times. So preferrencially, I like the ap1, you can't go wrong from the original. But I can understand why Honda went and made those changes, its for those people that didn't want to have to rev to 6k to get the car going. Just saying that I didn't find too much flaw w/ the original design.


PS - on a side note, California will not allow me to make a custom license plate that says Orgasm.....sux because that's what I get when I shift around 9k.

[ninja]

To get this "orgasm" feeling you are looking for in an AP2, you would need a lot more than just an ECU.

[RatedR]

I realize that, I'm not saying a simple ecu would change everything. I'm just wondering if you can make the f22 9k capable. I know the bottom end would have to be beefed up plenty to take the stress, but the differences between the DBW and throttle configurations wouldn't be compatible ecu wise. That's why I asked if the ECUs would be compatible.

[Vorlon]

I'm going to have to respond by saying that it's appears as though this "other" guy didn't really know his "stuff" either. A DBW throttle system doesn't "learn" anything. It simply responds to pedal position and rate of deflection. Unless the stability control kicks in, all it does is move the throttle body flap in accordance to what your gas foot is doing. It's the ECU that "learns" and depending upon the road conditions and how you drive, it may or may not intervene. But then, don't the new cars have an OFF switch for the VSA?
If one considers that not being allowed to spin tires or to able fishtail at will as "less performance", then this is driver perception and not really an "issue or problem" of throttle response or power delivery. This is to do with how Honda designed safety into the car so fewer idiots would hurt themselves and others, as well documented by history. When some people first test drive the newer S2000's, they tend to bag on the car or the very least, drive it with some "enthusiasm". This generally results in drive tires getting over their limits of adhesion. VSA doesn't allow this and kicks in. That's the computer making you back off. Then the driver "thinks" the car isn't as powerful.

Wow I never thought about that and it makes alot of sense. I didnt try turning the VSA off so Im not sure if that would have changed the feel =/

Some one is going to have to let me play with their AP1 so i can see what all the fuss is about :rolleye:

[RatedR]

Where's the VSA on/off button? I'm more than willing to give it another go w/o the VSA system on.....

[repiv]

Where's the VSA on/off button? I'm more than willing to give it another go w/o the VSA system on.....

I don't wish to mislead anyone. On most other cars with stability control, it's usually possible to turn it off. On the S2000, I'm not sure if there is a switch or where it might be. I'll let someone who has one, post about it.

[Enthralled]

I've "heard" you can reflash the 06 s2k to 9k rpm(only the 06 s2k).not sure if this is true..just something i heard the other day.

[CMan]

I've had an '05 and now an '06, so I can't speak to how they feel compared to an AP1, but I did notice on my '06 the ECU "learning".

I broke it in per the manual for the first 600 miles. Then, I started driving it like I normally drove my '05. At first, the '06 seemed a bit wimpy and weak, but by the time it hit 1,000 miles, it really felt stronger than my '05.

Concerning the DBW, I'm no expert driver, but I really can't tell the difference between my '05 and my '06. I can blip the throttle and downshift just fine on my '06 - the DBW is that responsive.

Lastly, I've been on group drives on the same routes with my '06 as my '05 and I've taken the corners even faster without the VSA ever kicking in. Now that I think of it, there is a 90 degree right turn onto a 3 lane street I take on the way home sometimes in 3rd at 25 mph and the VSA doesn't kick in (I usually go into the middle lane, but I know I could go into the right most lane).

[CMan]

I've "heard" you can reflash the 06 s2k to 9k rpm(only the 06 s2k).not sure if this is true..just something i heard the other day.

Are you talking about Hondata?

http://www.hondata.com/reflash_s2k_06.html

http://www.hondata.com/reflash_s2k_toda_header.html

The limit is raised to 8500 and VTEC engages at 4200.

[McManus]

In my test drives, I can't say I felt a difference between the '05 and the '06 DBW, but VSA can be scary. Normally you would experience X amount of oversteer and a good driver will simply compensate. But when VSA kicks in, you don't really know what to expect. I actually prefer turning VSA off (when the roads are dry) because it's a lot easier to predict oversteer than to predict what actions your ECU will take to control your car; I simply feel more comfortable with it off.

That being said, next autocross I do I'm tempted to leave VSA on and see how well I do. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it made me faster (me being a n00b and all :D )

[Spa_Ap1]

Where's the VSA on/off button? I'm more than willing to give it another go w/o the VSA system on.....

The VSA button is to the right of the steering wheel and behind the windshield washer stalk. It's in the spot where the rear defroster button is on 02-05. :thumbsup:

[alvanderp]

There is a big "VSA Off" buton to the right of the steering wheel (where I am told the defrost button used to be, the defrost is on the center console on my car), and it definetely shuts it off completely. I find that its pretty easy to get the car into the VSA, but I have alot of experience autocrossing and tracking various cars so my personal limit is probably higher than most.

Its been my experience that VTEC cars that have pronounced "kick" when the cam hits usually arent tuned as well. The reason it hits so hard is the ECU dumps fuel prior to the cam switch to ensure it doesnt lean out when the secondary rockers are engaged. When it dumps this fuel, the car actually loses power for a couple hundred rpm, making the changeover more pronounced. When you retune the a/f ratio with a piggyback or programmable ECU, you can make the VTEC switch almost imperceptible. This is actually ideal from a power delivery standpoint. From seeing AP1's and AP2's on dynos with a/f reading, it seems like the tuning was just a bit better on the F22 ECU as well. My car was at 13.0-13.5:1 all the way across bone stock, which is pretty good for an OE ECU.

The 06+ ECU can be reflashed by Hondata, and the rev-limit can be increased, but do so at your own risk. I wouldnt go past 8500 if you want any kind of reliability. The race car guys are only getting a season or 2 out of F22's at 8500rpm redline, above that you may be going through multiple engines a year on a track car. DD would likely be better, but still.

To add to Repiv's point, piston velocities that high with an increased stroke can also bring in side loading issues with the skirt on the cylinder wall. That may be the bigger issue to be honest.

[Enthralled]

Are you talking about Hondata?

http://www.hondata.com/reflash_s2k_06.html

http://www.hondata.com/reflash_s2k_toda_header.html

The limit is raised to 8500 and VTEC engages at 4200.



that might be it..As i don't own an 06 i did no research.

[wildncrazy]

The AP2 feels rather lackluster to me as well. I have spent a lot of time with the Ultralites (lotus clone powered by the S2000 engine) and the AP1s are quite a bit faster than the AP2s- especially on a autocross course.

This is mostly due to the combination of lower redline and lower tranny gearing. Most change to the AP1 tranny to get part of the speed per gear back but most end up using the AP1 ecu. So far no probs with the higher red lines.

[hecash]

I'm having a strange issue that nobody seems to understand. I put an '01 ECU into my '04 car and it worked just fine until I started to cruise on the highway. At steady state driving between 55 and 85 mph, I'll eventually pull a P0171 code that indicates a "lean" condition. When I data logged the parameters it for sure showed that the ECU was pulling fuel on steady state.

Wierd!

[repiv]

I'm having a strange issue that nobody seems to understand. I put an '01 ECU into my '04 car and it worked just fine until I started to cruise on the highway. At steady state driving between 55 and 85 mph, I'll eventually pull a P0171 code that indicates a "lean" condition. When I data logged the parameters it for sure showed that the ECU was pulling fuel on steady state.

Wierd!

Harry, take note of the rpm at those speeds. I think you'll find that no matter what speed you travel, so long as you can run steady state at those rpm, the lean condition will prevail for a long enough period of time to throw the code. Normal city driving, you are up and down the rev band. This doesn't produce the lean condition long enough to throw the code. I believe the '01 ECU does run a particular fuel map, but on an '01 car, this works due to the overall engine configuration. On an '04, it most likely leans out too much.
On my car, the air/fuel typically hovers between 14.7 and 15.0. I'll bet on your car, you are well above 15.0 during those times of steady state running. Check your plugs after a reasonable highway cruise before you come home if you can. I'm predicting they'll look really white.

[Slambo]

I have had the VSA kick in once when making a right turn at a speed which I knew was gonna make the fishtail, when it did or when it tryed to, the throttle bogged and it felt as if the left front brake kicked hard in then the rears lastly. The car was doing everythign it could to make it go straight. Once I let off the throttle totally the car went back to normal.

Then about a week ago, I was at a stop sign I turned VSA off turned right and matted the pettle to see how much the car would fishtail it was fun :D but totally controllable when the tires finnally grabbed the acceleration was excilerating.

VSA is a nice feature to have for those sudden unexpected moments where you dont want to loose control, and the fact that you can shut it off when you want make the car have the best of both worlds :)

[wildncrazy]

I am about to put an 00 ecu on an 04 engine (in an Ultralite) so I'd be interested in hearing about your lean code fix. I'd also be interested to see if it was lean enough to do any damage.

I figure a little VAFC tuning could fatten the curve in those spots if it were lean enough to be an issue.

[hecash]

I am about to put an 00 ecu on an 04 engine (in an Ultralite) so I'd be interested in hearing about your lean code fix. I'd also be interested to see if it was lean enough to do any damage.

I figure a little VAFC tuning could fatten the curve in those spots if it were lean enough to be an issue.

With a "learning" ecu like the S2000, you may want to go to an eManage to take care of the VTEC points as well as the non-WOT throttle states. It's only a few bucks more than a VAFC and gives you many more options for tuning.

Just a thought. ('Cause, that's what I'm going to do.)

[hecash]

Harry, take note of the rpm at those speeds. I think you'll find that no matter what speed you travel, so long as you can run steady state at those rpm, the lean condition will prevail for a long enough period of time to throw the code. Normal city driving, you are up and down the rev band. This doesn't produce the lean condition long enough to throw the code. I believe the '01 ECU does run a particular fuel map, but on an '01 car, this works due to the overall engine configuration. On an '04, it most likely leans out too much.
On my car, the air/fuel typically hovers between 14.7 and 15.0. I'll bet on your car, you are well above 15.0 during those times of steady state running. Check your plugs after a reasonable highway cruise before you come home if you can. I'm predicting they'll look really white.

Good point!

I'll pull my data logs and look at that.

[RatedR]

Alvanderp,

I wouldn't say its "rough" for the AP1's vtec, its just more fun. The AP2 feels like you're always on race mode, the AP1 actually has a designated RPM that you can go past and feel like the car just wants more and more and more......

Its like the difference between a woman that WANTS you to give it to her and keeps screaming with every thrust and finally has the wildest orgasm you've ever given any woman, and a woman that keeps moaning and is ready for an orgasm but doesnt quite finish, Does that make sense? Either way, both are fine, I'll probably end up buying an AP2 as well, but I still prefer the AP1's behavior, that is until I try with theVSA off....