Oil burning on hard braking

[Jesuis]

This weekend at hte track , my '03 AP1 has started burning a lot of oil at very specific points on the track. After much experimentation, I found that it happens after hard sustained braking; about 90mph->60mph threshold (or slightly less than threshold) braking.

During the hard decel stage, I can hear the engine "choking" and sputtering on the oil that's entering it somehow. I've heard from corner workers that my car is then also shooting big flames out the back (FYI: I have a test pipe)

Then, when I get back on throttle, gigantic clouds of smoke come out the exhaust. This is not just a puff, it is really huge. You cannot see through the smoke screen. Cars behind me have to slow down, because they can't see what's ahead. In my rearview, I see cars emerging out of a wall of smoke. It looks very dramatic, but it's over pretty quick, and otherwise the car feels as strong as it ever was.

If I don't brake hard at that specific point, there is no problem. There is a right-hander at that point, but the smoking starts even before turn-in. To give you an idea of the amount of oil that's going through, I used 3/4 of a quart on 8-9 laps (+/- 20 minutes) of hard braking at that point. Later, I took it a bit easier at that point, to reduce the oil burning. The less braking I do at that point, the less smoke I see. Under normal driving, the car seems perfectly normal.

I MacGyver'd up a catch can out of some tape and a gatorade bottle at the track, but the oil did not seem to be coming out of the valve cover vent lines. I also replaced my PCV valve, but that didn't help either. I really do not think it is the infamous vent line problem.


The latest theory is this: Something is wrong with one of the #1 cylinder valve stem/guide seals. On hard sustained braking, oil piles up in the front of the valve housing, and drains down along the valve stem, into the #1 cylinder.

XViper: what are your thoughts on this?

[Presidente]

welcome to corvette territory lol

[gomarlins3]

That's weird. Usually that is a catch can issue. I am also interested to see what X thinks.

[griffon]

Something that is very inexpensive and easy to try is a new pvc valve. Or the Krank vent if you want to spend a bit more.
Properly functioning pcv's will keep a slight vacuum in the crankcase and valve covers.
Joe

[Jesuis]

Something that is very inexpensive and easy to try is a new pvc valve. Or the Krank vent if you want to spend a bit more.
Properly functioning pcv's will keep a slight vacuum in the crankcase and valve covers.
Joe

From my first post:
I also replaced my PCV valve, but that didn't help either.
:p :D

I also thought I'd mention that:
a: it doesn't happen until maybe the 3rd or 4th lap, and then every lap after that.
b: sometimes I'm at 9k rpm in 3rd when I begin braking, and sometimes I shift to 4th beforehand. I think (but I could be wrong) that it's worse when I stay in 3rd.

These two points seem to agree with the valve stem seal theory, since after 3 laps, the oil is thinner and would more easily pentrate through a crack in a seal. Also, at 9k rpm and closed throttle, there may be a more extreme cylinder vacuum than when in 4th, sucking more oil past the valve stem.

Is it possible to inspect the valve seals by just pulling the valve cover, leaving camshafts/rockers in place?

[kraemer007]

Coops car was doing something similar to that.

Coop?

[Jesuis]

Coops car was doing something similar to that.

Coop?

I know, that's why I rigged up a makeshift catch can, but that didn't fix the problem at all. Also, I inspected the vent lines that are usually the problem and were totally clean and non-oily on the inside.

Another detail that may or may not be important: There was one oily vacuum line on the intake manifold. It is the line in the middle of a series of 3 lines on top of the manifold. The first (from front to back) is the PCV line (clean), then the middle one (oily), and then a line that goes to the fuel rail. The middle, oily line goes down between the intake pipes and below the manifold. I think this is an idle control vacuum line, but i'm not sure. If it is indeed an idle control line, then it cannot be delivering oil into the manifold. I think it is just oily because of general manifold grime getting into it.

[repiv]

A bad valve stem seal would still draw oil even if you weren't braking hard. The way the oil is distributed throughout the cam area, it wouldn't need lots of oil to pool up at the front of the engine.
When you have maximal decelaration, like you said, you have very high manifold vacuum. This should be drawing vapours through the PCV line and into the intake. However, there is another source of oil vapour out the valve cover and that's the front breather line. If, for some reason, you are not achieving the usual manifold vacuum (perhaps due to a poor seal in the throttle plate), oil will be drawn out that front breather (when it pools up front due to hard braking) and get sucked into the intake manifold. Pull off your intake tube and see if there is excessive oily residue in that area. Try putting a catch can on that line and plug the inlet going into the intake tube.
Generally, S2000s smoke excessively on hard right handers. This is normal and a catch can on both lines will resolve this. Try it and if it doesn't resolve it, then you can suspect a valve seal issue.
That middle line you spoke of has to do with the Evaporatinve Emission Canister Purge Valve. The last one goes to the fuel pressure regulator.

[Jesuis]

Thanks Dave,

I trust your opinion and I hope you are right in that it is not a valve stem seal. The makeshift catch can I spoke of was mounted in the front vent line, not the PCV line. I should have also tried mounting it at the PCV line, but when I inspected that hose, it was perfectly clean. The fact that the catch can caught no oil, that the PCV line was non-oily and that the oil-burning starts before the actual turn-in for the right-hander led me to believe it was a bad valve stem seal.

You sound fairly certain that it's not a valve seal (which is good to hear), but I'd still like to know the following:
A: I'd still like to inspect the seals just in case (please don't be offended by this :) ). Is it possible to inspect the seals by pulling just the valve cover?
B: If it was a valve seal, it would likely be limited to a single cylinder. Will examining the spark plug electrodes give an indication of whether it's happening in one or all four cylinders?
C: I have already signed up for another track weekend in 2 weeks. I will rig up a catch can on both lines and try it out then. If the catch can does not solve the problem, is it safe to continue tracking my car that weekend, as long as I keep a close eye on my oil level?

I have not been able to (safely) reproduce the problem on the street, so the next track weekend is a nice testing opportunity.

[repiv]

You sound fairly certain that it's not a valve seal (which is good to hear), but I'd still like to know the following:
A: I'd still like to inspect the seals just in case (please don't be offended by this :) ). Is it possible to inspect the seals by pulling just the valve cover?
B: If it was a valve seal, it would likely be limited to a single cylinder. Will examining the spark plug electrodes give an indication of whether it's happening in one or all four cylinders?
C: I have already signed up for another track weekend in 2 weeks. I will rig up a catch can on both lines and try it out then. If the catch can does not solve the problem, is it safe to continue tracking my car that weekend, as long as I keep a close eye on my oil level?

I have not been able to (safely) reproduce the problem on the street, so the next track weekend is a nice testing opportunity.
Well, as certain as one can be without actually being there to see and touch the car.
Not offended at all. There can be many possibilites whenever dealing with automotive issues. I looked in the Helm manual and it appears that the seals are not easy to inspect without removing them. They are inside the confines of the valve springs and these need to be removed to get a good look at the seals.
Checking the spark plugs would be a good start. It may or may not be confined to one cylinder. It depends on how the oil is getting in. If one plug is oily while the others are not, then the valve seal is a likely candidate. If all plugs are oily, then I'd say that the oil is making its way into the intake manifold somehow (PCV) and it draws it so rapidly and completely that it leaves little residue in the tube.
Does it smoke at all when you accerate hard? This may only be seen by another driver from behind you. If it does, then it could also be a bad set of rings in one or more cylinders. Remember that when you brake hard, the oil doesn't only accumulate at the front of the top of the engine, but it also does it in the oil pan. High compression braking can draw oil past the rings more effectively than when just accelerating. Examination of the plugs should tell you if a compression test is the next thing you need to do.

[griffon]

Something that is very inexpensive and easy to try is a new pvc valve. Or the Krank vent if you want to spend a bit more.
Properly functioning pcv's will keep a slight vacuum in the crankcase and valve covers.
Joe

If you read my post again you will see that I meant for you to try ANOTHER new pcv.:bow: I have seen many bad new ones.
It would be a cheap fix if it works.
Hope you find the problem.

Did this ever happen before when you tracked it?

[Jesuis]

Well, as certain as one can be without actually being there to see and touch the car.
Not offended at all. There can be many possibilites whenever dealing with automotive issues. I looked in the Helm manual and it appears that the seals are not easy to inspect without removing them. They are inside the confines of the valve springs and these need to be removed to get a good look at the seals.
Checking the spark plugs would be a good start. It may or may not be confined to one cylinder. It depends on how the oil is getting in. If one plug is oily while the others are not, then the valve seal is a likely candidate. If all plugs are oily, then I'd say that the oil is making its way into the intake manifold somehow (PCV) and it draws it so rapidly and completely that it leaves little residue in the tube.
Does it smoke at all when you accerate hard? This may only be seen by another driver from behind you. If it does, then it could also be a bad set of rings in one or more cylinders. Remember that when you brake hard, the oil doesn't only accumulate at the front of the top of the engine, but it also does it in the oil pan. High compression braking can draw oil past the rings more effectively than when just accelerating. Examination of the plugs should tell you if a compression test is the next thing you need to do.

The car is perfectly fine on accel (except of course, for residual oil burning if the accel is right after the hard braking). All corner workers at the track were aware of the problem and kept an eye on my car. It seemed to only happen at that hard braking point. Oil usage seemed fine during the drive home yesterday (1 hour highway driving). I am hitting the same speeds as always at the track, so I do not seem to be lacking power.
I bought the car in July, 2nd hand, 30k miles. I had it compression tested when I bought it, and it showed 220 on all four cylinders, so no problem there. I have put 6k on it since (including 3 track weekends).

I have thought about the "rapid oil draw" theory too. I hope that's the problem. I will be experimenting and testing this week/weekend. I'll update when I find out more.

Thanks for your help, Dave. :thumbup:

[Jesuis]

If you read my post again you will see that I meant for you to try ANOTHER new pcv.:bow: I have seen many bad new ones.
It would be a cheap fix if it works.
Hope you find the problem.

Did this ever happen before when you tracked it?

I see. I'll try to trade my new PCV valve for another. BTW: The old PCV valve seemed to be fine when I did a simple suck and blow test on it. ( :D That sounds nasty)

This was my third track weekend. The first 2 times I had no problems. People have said that maybe it's because as I gain experience I push the car harder (I have definitely been pushing harder, but I have to ease up A LOT to prevent the smoking)

[Jesuis]

UPDATE

I did a compression test this evening: 200 across the board, so that seems to be fine. A blown piston ring was highly unlikely, but this puts my mind at ease.

I also pulled the spark plugs. All four looked exactly the same, I took a picture of one of them. Maybe a bit oily around the rim (don't know if this is "normal"), but they do strike me as being very white at the electrodes. Off-topic, but does this plug look like it's running too hot, Dave?
http://forums.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/medium/sparkplug.jpg
Anyhoo, I'm starting to feel more and more confident that I just have an extreme case of oil-through-pcv-line-itis. I will install a catch can, and see what happens at the next track event (March 3/4).

[DarkShade9]

How many miles are on those plugs?

[Jesuis]

How many miles are on those plugs?

No idea, I bought the car used with 29k in july. I now have around 36k, with the same plugs as when I bought it.

[DarkShade9]

Probably stock then. Do you know how hard the driver rode the S before you had it? Any visible signs?

[Jesuis]

Previous owner was in his twenties (like me). Good guy, we talked about the car a lot, and he said he drove it fairly hard once in a while. He seemed very honest about everything, and I think he used to drive it just like I do (hard, whenever the situation allows :D ). Only thing was that the alignment was really out of whack. I think that was because he had lowered it, without re-aligning.

Car was in good condition, with only some normal/expected wear&tear for an 03. Had it checked out by a Honda dealer before I bought it, including compression test.

[Jesuis]

You think I may be due for a spark plug change? What's a decent plug change interval?

[repiv]

UPDATE
but they do strike me as being very white at the electrodes. Off-topic, but does this plug look like it's running too hot, Dave?
The black rim is pretty normal. The white on the electrodes and the center insulator may be an indication of too hot and/or too lean. What kind of plugs? Even though you are burning oil quite dramatically, this is only momentary and the plugs can burn themselves clean easily.
Since you put the catch can on the front breather, time to put one on the PCV line. When you're heading into a turn at high rpm and then close throttle, you are putting tremendous vacuum into the PCV line (as much as -22 psi). Since your oil is pretty hot by now, there will be lots of oil vapour in the crankcase. What type of oil are you running? The hotter the oil and the thinner the oil, the more likely it will vaporize.

[repiv]

You think I may be due for a spark plug change? What's a decent plug change interval?

This depends on the type and heat range of the plugs. The OEM plugs are supposed to last over 100K miles.

[Jesuis]

The black rim is pretty normal. The white on the electrodes and the center insulator may be an indication of too hot and/or too lean. What kind of plugs? Even though you are burning oil quite dramatically, this is only momentary and the plugs can burn themselves clean easily.
Since you put the catch can on the front breather, time to put one on the PCV line. When you're heading into a turn at high rpm and then close throttle, you are putting tremendous vacuum into the PCV line (as much as -22 psi). Since your oil is pretty hot by now, there will be lots of oil vapour in the crankcase. What type of oil are you running? The hotter the oil and the thinner the oil, the more likely it will vaporize.

I run 10W30 valvoline dino-juice. Funny you mention the "hot" oil, because it doesn't start happening until the 3rd lap or so.

I was indeed planning on running the catch can in the PCV line. I have an old vacuum canister with 2 in/outlets, so that should work nicely. I'll be rigging it up this weekend.

As for running lean, I was thinking the same... What's an easy way to find out? (without paying for a dyno run) If I ran too lean and got misfiring/knocking, I'd get a CEL, right?

[repiv]

I run 10W30 valvoline dino-juice. Funny you mention the "hot" oil, because it doesn't start happening until the 3rd lap or so.

I was indeed planning on running the catch can in the PCV line. I have an old vacuum canister with 2 in/outlets, so that should work nicely. I'll be rigging it up this weekend.

As for running lean, I was thinking the same... What's an easy way to find out? (without paying for a dyno run) If I ran too lean and got misfiring/knocking, I'd get a CEL, right?

Oil seems to be good. I thought maybe your were running thin oil.

If you want to keep the vacuum assisted PCV system, the catch can must be a closed system. IE, it can't have any access to atmosphere. You use 1 in and 1 out. The other 2 openings must be sealed closed.

You could splice in a cheap narrow band air/fuel gauge. You don't need to know the actual number, just if it's on the lean side at WOT in the upper rpm band. But since you are NA, running a bit lean is not a huge concern.

[Jesuis]

Ok, thanks. I'll see about the air/fuel gauge. Are they available off-the-shelf at any old autozone?

BTW, I meant 2 openings total, so 1 inlet, 1 outlet, so that'll work fine.

[repiv]

I was thinking you might be able to borrow an a/f gauge from someone near you. If you lived here, I have an old one I don't use anymore. Mine is an Autometer guage:
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=viewimage&img=205598&md=1

[griffon]

Do all the plugs look like the one pictured?

[griffon]

I see. I'll try to trade my new PCV valve for another. BTW: The old PCV valve seemed to be fine when I did a simple suck and blow test on it. ( :D That sounds nasty)

Blow is just a figure of speach.:D

[Jesuis]

Do all the plugs look like the one pictured?

Yeah, they all look exactly the same.

[repiv]

Those do not look like OEM plugs. They look like copper plugs. Copper plugs won't last much more than a few thousand miles in this engine. And since they aren't OEM plugs, what heat range are they? You may be running the wrong kind, not that this would contribute to the smoke at the track.

[Jesuis]

Those do not look like OEM plugs. They look like copper plugs. Copper plugs won't last much more than a few thousand miles in this engine. And since they aren't OEM plugs, what heat range are they? You may be running the wrong kind, not that this would contribute to the smoke at the track.

Stupid me did not think to check the brand/type of plugs when I pulled them. I will check again, and replace with OEM if necessary. Thanks for the advice :thumbup:

[Jesuis]

Update

Well, I rigged a up catch can Dutch-style (using a bunch of old junk, hoses, tie-wraps and rubber cement that was laying around the garage :D ). I ran the PCV line through the catch can, and back into the manifold.

This weekend I went to another track weekend, and guess what? No smoke! The catch can worked like a charm.
Then during lunch on Saturday, I drove off to go get gas, and it started spewing out a ton of smoke again. Turns out that my +/- 20 oz. catch can was full to the rim after only two runs, and oil was being sucked out of the can. From then on I had to empty the catch can after each run. I poured the oil back in the engine, then rechecked the oil, and the level was fine. I never had to add any oil during the whole weekend, so no significant amount was actually being burned.

I measured the amount of oil in the catch can, and it was catching about 12-13 ounces per 20 minute run.

The question remains why my oil-sucking problem is so much more extreme than anybody else I've talked to. Next weekend maybe I'll pull the valve cover to make sure I'm not missing a baffle or something.

Is it possible that maybe the oil return channels in the the cylinder head/block are slighty clogged, causing oil puddles to build up in the camshaft area? Maybe there's "sludge" in there or something, clogging the channels? (Just some wild guesses here)

[repiv]

Might not be a bad idea to take a look under the valve cover just to be sure. I can't imagine that you would have poor oil return unless you've been somewhat remiss in your oil and filter change regimen (sludge).
You might also consider installing Kranvents on both lines.

[Jesuis]

I've been reasonably diligent in oil/filter changes (once every 4k or so). I've had the car for almost 9k miles and i've done 2 changes. I don't know about the previous owner, though.

Other poeple have suggested krank vents as well. I don't see how this would help. It's basically a beefier PCV valve right? The oil is flowing the same direction as the air, so I don't see why another one-way valve would help anything?

[griffon]

I'd bet on sludge or gasket material if the cover has been off before.

[repiv]

I don't have any experience with Krankvents myself, but people who use them, swear by them. The principles of how they work seem reasonable. Being "beefier", it may exclude oil vapours from going into the PCV line under it's own pressure. Also, under acceleration, for a NA engine, the intake manifold is still under vacuum but not nearly as much as when under high rpm deceleration. The Krankvent may be just beefier enough to keep some of that oil in the engine until high vacuum occurs.
The other alternative (and the one that I use for FI) is to go with a vented catch can and exclude manifold vacumm entirely from the PCV system. I also have my front breather going into the same vented catch can. I can't say how this would work for you since I don't track my car.

[Jesuis]

The other alternative (and the one that I use for FI) is to go with a vented catch can and exclude manifold vacumm entirely from the PCV system. I also have my front breather going into the same vented catch can. I can't say how this would work for you since I don't track my car.

I'm sure that approach would completely solve the problem, since there is no more vacuum to "suck" oil. Only problem is that it's illegal. (but, whatever... I already have a testpipe, so legality went out the window 6 months ago)

[kraemer007]

Hey, please explain the whole PCV system and why there is a vacuum there... Thankey!

[Jesuis]

Hey, please explain the whole PCV system and why there is a vacuum there... Thankey!

No prob, I always like explaining car stuff to people... Here we go...

inside an engine crankcase, camshaft housing, etc., gases will build up during operation, for example from blowby past the piston rings. These gases need to leave the engine block, but in modern cars, the gases are not allowed to be vented into open air (environmental concerns). These gases need to be run through the cylinders and through the catalytic converter before being expelled.

As you know, the downward movement of a piston on the intake stroke causes it to suck in air out of the intake manifold. When the throttle (red cirlce in the photo) is open, this air is free to flow from the airbox into the cylinder (blue arrows). When the throttle is closed, however, the pistons act basically like vacuum pumps, sucking in air from the manifold, but air cannot flow into it from the airbox. So, a vacuum condition is created inside the manifold as the pistons continue to suck the air out of the manifold.

By running a hose from the valve cover to the manifold, any gases will be sucked out of the engine whenever you close the throttle (partially or fully closed). Another vent hose in the front of the valve cover allows fresh, filtered air from the airbox enter the valve cover. This way, the engine is continually "flushed" with fresh air, and gases/vapors are combusted in the cylinders and expelled through the cat and exhaust. The green arrows show the flow of air through the valve cover. The PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) valve makes sure that the vent air can only go one way -> into the cylinders to be burnt up.

Apparantly, in my case, oil in the valve cover was sloshing around in a very specific way at certain points in the track during braking, so it pooled near the pcv valve. Since I'm braking, and off the throttle (but still at very high RPM's), there is very high vacuum in the manifold at this point, and it's sucking air through the PCV valve like it's nobody's business. The high vacuum combined with the oil sloshing causes a bunch of oil to get sucked straight up into the pcv valve,, and into the intake manifold. When I get back on the throttle, all this oil is blown into the cylinders, burns up (partially), goes out the exhaust, and I see a gigantic James Bond smoke screen in my rearview, and blast out some big-ass fireballs out of my tailpipes :D

The fireball was cool and all, but it was costing me half a quart of oil per run, so I made a catch can. This can is just an airtight container with a hose going in and one going out. You put it inline with the PCV air line, and it allows the air to flow through, while catching any oil that gets sucked along with it. I had to empty mine after every run! (12-13 ounces)

Dave, if I missed anything, please chime in.
http://forums.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/airflow.jpg

edit: Nevermind the green circles in the pic. It's not my pic, I just a googled a suitable one, and it had those green circles in it already.

[griffon]

No prob, I always like explaining car stuff to people... Here we go...

inside an engine crankcase, camshaft housing, etc., gases will build up during operation, for example from blowby past the piston rings. These gases need to leave the engine block, but in modern cars, the gases are not allowed to be vented into open air (environmental concerns). These gases need to be run through the cylinders and through the catalytic converter before being expelled.

As you know, the downward movement of a piston on the intake stroke causes it to suck in air out of the intake manifold. When the throttle (red cirlce in the photo) is open, this air is free to flow from the airbox into the cylinder (blue arrows). When the throttle is closed, however, the pistons act basically like vacuum pumps, sucking in air from the manifold, but air cannot flow into it from the airbox. So, a vacuum condition is created inside the manifold as the pistons continue to suck the air out of the manifold.

By running a hose from the valve cover to the manifold, any gases will be sucked out of the engine whenever you close the throttle (partially or fully closed). Another vent hose in the front of the valve cover allows fresh, filtered air from the airbox enter the valve cover. This way, the engine is continually "flushed" with fresh air, and gases/vapors are combusted in the cylinders and expelled through the cat and exhaust. The green arrows show the flow of air through the valve cover. The PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) valve makes sure that the vent air can only go one way -> into the cylinders to be burnt up.

Apparantly, in my case, oil in the valve cover was sloshing around in a very specific way at certain points in the track during braking, so it pooled near the pcv valve. Since I'm braking, and off the throttle (but still at very high RPM's), there is very high vacuum in the manifold at this point, and it's sucking air through the PCV valve like it's nobody's business. The high vacuum combined with the oil sloshing causes a bunch of oil to get sucked straight up into the pcv valve,, and into the intake manifold. When I get back on the throttle, all this oil is blown into the cylinders, burns up (partially), goes out the exhaust, and I see a gigantic James Bond smoke screen in my rearview, and blast out some big-ass fireballs out of my tailpipes :D

The fireball was cool and all, but it was costing me half a quart of oil per run, so I made a catch can. This can is just an airtight container with a hose going in and one going out. You put it inline with the PCV air line, and it allows the air to flow through, while catching any oil that gets sucked along with it. I had to empty mine after every run! (12-13 ounces)

Dave, if I missed anything, please chime in.
http://forums.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/airflow.jpg

edit: Nevermind the green circles in the pic. It's not my pic, I just a googled a suitable one, and it had those green circles in it already.

Any chance your front hose, the one air enters from the air horn, is plugged? Or the nipple on the valve cover?

If this is plugged it would cause a high vacuum condition condition on the PCV line since there would be no fresh air admitted into the valve cover.

I'd see if air can be blown into the valve cover through it as well as the intake through it.

If all else fails, look for the simple answers.:)

[kraemer007]

No prob, I always like explaining car stuff to people... Here we go...
Dynamite explanation. I am going to have to 2nd the theory that the valve cover intake tube may be blocked in some way. Do you have any way to vacuum test it?

-Actually, I have another question. What prevents gases and fluid from going OUT the valve cover intake tube?

[Jesuis]

Dynamite explanation. I am going to have to 2nd the theory that the valve cover intake tube may be blocked in some way. Do you have any way to vacuum test it?

I think I'm just going to pull the valve cover off this weekend. I'll do my patented suck-and-blow test :) on all the tubes. Curt from Track Time Performance thought that maybe the previous owner may have removed a baffle inside the valve cover for some reason, so I'll be checking that, too.

[Jesuis]

Actually, I have another question. What prevents gases and fluid from going OUT the valve cover intake tube?

That's partly due to the PCV valve, which prevents flow in that direction in the first place (the PCV valve vent is the only other vent where air would then be able to enter the valve cover), and partly because of the fact that there is almost always more vacuum in the manifold than in the intake tube. So air is almost always flowing into the valve cover at the front, and out of the valve cover at the rear (PCV vent). The only time that this might not be the case is during wide open throttle, but the pressure difference between intake tube and manifold will be much less extreme than on closed throttle. At the track you're mostly either full on the throttle, or hard on the brake, but I was having the problem on hard braking... so during closed throttle.

That said, Coop did in fact mount his oil catch can on that front line. I do not believe it caught any oil at the track this weekend, though.

[bimdub]

sweet writeup...any other questions? basically that is the basics...I could continue this with some history, and other types of systems used to do the same thing, and even go a little more in depth as to why you want to evacuate those nasty gasses out of your crankcase...

on a personall note...I would think that something is not quite right with your system as well....and it very well could be the front hose.....

[Jesuis]

sweet writeup...any other questions? basically that is the basics...I could continue this with some history, and other types of systems used to do the same thing, and even go a little more in depth as to why you want to evacuate those nasty gasses out of your crankcase...

on a personall note...I would think that something is not quite right with your system as well....and it very well could be the front hose.....

By all means, chime in! The more you know..... ....the more you can be a smart-ass at parties :D


With all these votes on the front vent line being plugged somewhere, I will definitely be checking this out this weekend.
I'm kind of hoping the problem does turn out to be something like that... you know, for closure and all that :)

[bimdub]

The PCV system is used to control blowby! this is the stuff that gets past the rings and seals in the engine, in any engine there will always be blowby, some engines more than others, the higher the compression, higher the RPM range, or the more wear, the higher the blowby generally. these gasses are corrosive! they quickly destroy good engine oil and also can eat away at the metals inside the engine. they are also highly flammable...even explosive! a really good breakdown is actually provided here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve and it explains the operation (proper) of the valve itself. under hard decceleration the valve should be almost completely closed.....I thought you replaced the valve so I would suspect the oil entering somewhere else....as the vent tube is at the front of the cam cover...I would have suspected that it is clogged, however further re-reading (a refresher course if you will) would have me thinking its not clogged at all! I am more apt to think that what is happening is that under very hard braking you are having oil slosh up to the front of the head...and then pour down the tube....thereby getting into the intake airflow....simple check....pull the hose off...and the intake tube as well from the throttle body to air filter...is there a bunch of oily residue around your throttle body, and inside? that would be an indication that you have a problem.

ok now don't panic yet! to address this you would be well of washing down the intake with a fuel system cleaning....you could have this done, or do it yourself, ideally this is the easy way to get the intake cleaned, not the best! use a good throttle body cleaner...and while the engine is off! spray out the throttle body area well, wait about 20 minutes and then start the engine, it may run a little rough at first....now while manipulating the throttle you need to spray quick short burts into the throttle area....do not let the straw if use get sucked in! (a little superglue goes a long way here) I usually try not to let the rpms fall all the way back to idle for this! just rev between 2500-6500 rpms....and watch for backfires! they do happen! I can use almost an entire can doing this! you will most likely set off a check engine light, but that can be reset later....(auto parts store) this is also a good time to replace the plugs....and add a really good injector cleaner to the tank...


these are good examples

http://www.bmpdesign.com/product-exec/product_id/287/category_id/13/search_year/1981/search_model/11

http://www.bmpdesign.com/product-exec/product_id/279/category_id/12/search_year/1981/search_model/11

http://shop.autobahnpower.com/main.asp?category=BG+44K+and+BG+Products


and a good intake valve deposit cleaner

http://www.bmpdesign.com/product-exec/product_id/5478/category_id/13/search_year/1981/search_model/11

follow the directions on the bottle! in the case of Redline....I have dumped an entire bottle into a tank! and then after that use the normal amount as indicated on the bottle! I have a carbed 320 running pretty rich and have had the intake off several times....silly webers! and the intake looks as fresh as the day I installed it...as do the intake valves! no carbon? KEWL! this is with a lot of hard miles and a lousy air filter!

this is very close to the method that you can get done at many shops, I suggest you make sure the shop has BG products

http://www.bgams.com/

http://www.bgprod.com/products/fuelair.html

they are among the best!

the other and probably far more expensive alternative....remove intake..have cleaned..as well as possibly the valves? OUCH!

ok that still does not answer the question as to how you got so much oil there....but this might?

thought I read prior owned? could be that the oil was not changed properly (often enough) or the car was used in stop and go a lot..not getting warm enough to evaporate any condensation inside the crankcase (sludge)....and you have some buildup in the drainback passages.....these will need to be taken care of as well.....not entirely good news! but don't panic.....you could just perform an engine flush or maybe two within a short time of each other (about a week) and clear things up....my method is not terribly expensive....

some motor flush, engine flush or whatever (suggestions) I have found that 1 quart of ATF (never done this to a Honda) mixed with the rest of the engine oil...so if your car holds 5.5 quarts you would need 1 quart ATF and 4.5 quarts fresh engine oil and a new oil filter... perform an oil change using this mixture or substitute the quart of ATF for whatever oil system cleaner you can get at an auto parts store....start the engine and let it idle for around 15-20 minutes max! then change the oil and filter with your regular stuff...for the cleaning phase I recommend an inexpensive filter and dino oil is fine as well! I do not know how well this would clean the passages of a VTEC engine as you would have to get the engine into VTEC to pass the mis through it....hmmm....say heavier oil and the engine flush....rev to 7K max with no load? or even just rev to about 4K and false trigger the VTEC solenoid?

of course this is all assuming my theory is correct....you could have other issues..such as really awesome brakes? my 320 corners hard enough to generate the G forces required to push washer fluid up the hose to the squirter? this is actually common on these cars with the right suspension work...and I can even take a hard right hand turn with anything less than 1/2 tank and starve the fuel pump! this is because of the dual tanks joined at the bottom by a large rubber hose..the G's will force the fuel into the outside tank...and the car will die from lack of fuel! (not as much of an issue with the carbs thanks to float bowls as with the fuel injection!).....and if you are heavy braking and downshifting....I can believe it to be possible that the oil is simply not getting the alloted time to drainback and is forced to the front of the head with nowhere to escape except the vent tube.....in that case you might want to relocate the vent tube.....say run it from the rear? unless you can accelerate as hard as you brake? then you may be forced to go from the top? say in the center on the passenger side?

BTW....the ATF trick is old school! very old School...and if you ever have to rebuild a nasty engine
double the ATF and run for about 30 minutes at 2000 rpms! the inside will be soooo much cleaner!

[Jesuis]

Thanks for the info, Bimdub. A few comments:

I also originally thought that since the problem occured during hard braking, the oil must have been sloshing into the front vent hose. I even rigged up a catch can out of a gatorade bottle on that line at the track 2 weeks ago, but that did not solve the problem. I now know for a fact that the oil was coming in through the rear (pcv) vent line, because that's the line where my current catch can is now mounted. That catch can is now doing its job and catching the oil.

Also, you mentioned checking for oily residue. Two weeks ago at the track when I first found out about this problem, I removed both the front and rear vent lines and checked them for oily residue. They were both perfectly clean, which puzzled me. That's the reason why I was afraid it might have been a more serious problem, such as leaky valve guides.... XViper suggested earlier in this thread that maybe one of the vent lines was indeed the problem, but it was just being sucked clean by the high airflow going through it. Turns out he was 100% correct!
"Mad respect" to you for that, Dave! :thumbup:
A message for future oil-burners: a clean vent line does NOT mean that oil is not going through it!

I already bought a can of carburetor cleaner, and sprayed the sh!t out of my intake manifold with it. I will give it another go this weekend.

I never heard of that ATF/oil flush trick, cool! I'm pulling the valve cover this weekend. If it looks gunked up or sludgy, I'll try out that trick! Good idea with the injector cleaner, I'll do that too.

While I have the valve cover pulled, I'll also be checking for any cracked valve retainers just in case. I've never overrevved my engine, but you never know what the previous owner may have done to it.

[Jesuis]

Update

Well, I pulled the valve cover this morning, and I think I found (and solved) the cause of the infamous oil bruning problem.

Here is the underside of the valve cover:
http://forums.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/medium/P1011401_edit.jpg

I labeled the front, left and right side of the cover, as well as the location of the PCV valve and vent "intake". There is a baffle plate all along the top of the valve cover. It is sealed with a gasket-like material almost all along its perimeter (red line). The only place it is open to the camshaft area is along the right side (low side), so any oi caught up there drains out. There is an enclosed "pocket" at the front of the baffle where oil cannot drain to the right side (purple area). Normally, this probably won't matter, but under hard braking oil will pool up in this pocket. If you keep on going straight after the braking, the pooled up oil will just drain out on the right side. However, if the hard braking is immediately followed by a hard right turn, the pool of oil will swing from the front to the left (high) side, where, because of high vacuum, it will get sucked straight up the PCV valve.
I think the reason why the problem was so extreme in my case was because of my driving style. I brake very hard, and turn in hard immediately after. (tstiles and servicemangler will confirm this ;) ) I know I should probably be smoother, but throwing the car around through the corners is just way too much fun :)

Solution: punch some drain holes in he "oil collecting pocket":
http://forums.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/medium/P1011422.JPG
Hopefully, pooled up oil will drain out of the pocket while braking, and will no longer slosh to the pcv valve on a subsequent right-hander.

It was probably unnecessary, but I washed the valve cover to rinse out any possible metal particles that may have resulted from punching the holes. After washing, I ran it through the dishwasher on the "rinse" and "heated dry" cycles.
http://forums.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/medium/P1011420.JPG
http://forums.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/medium/P1011421.JPG

I'm going to the track again next week. I'll update y'all if this solution actually solves the problem.

PS: I did the "suck and blow" test on all lines and valves, they were all fine.

[kraemer007]

Haha, putting it in the dishwasher is "ultimate nerd", I LOVE it! :)

[Jesuis]

Update

Well, I went to the track today, and it seems the perforated valve cover baffle works. My catch can now caught only about a tablespoon of oil per run. That's a big improvement over the 13 oz. of oil it caught last time.

Looks like the right-turn oil burn problem has a pretty simple (and cheap! :D ) solution.

[joe_s2k]

Can I borrow your dishwasher when you get back? ;)

Excellent analysis senor Erik!

[Jesuis]

Can I borrow your dishwasher when you get back? ;)

Excellent analysis senor Erik!

Senor Joe, mi dishwasher es su dishwasher!

[bimdub]

DUDE YOU ROCK! I Gotta hand it to ya on the dishwasher thing!

I have rebuilt several engines and even two transnissions in out dining room but getting to use the dishasher! now thats way too AWESOME!

[XLevel]

Very informative thread and A+ to all those involved. I learn something new every day.

[Hondassport]

Congratulations,I have read many post on this problem and I think you have finally found the problem and come up with a fix I will do this to my 03 next weekend,Thank You..............Pete

[Jesuis]

Congratulations,I have read many post on this problem and I think you have finally found the problem and come up with a fix I will do this to my 03 next weekend,Thank You..............Pete

Thanks! After you do this "fix", please report back to this thread. I'd love to hear if the fix works for you too.

Here's a tip: The way I punched the holes, the punched out "rims" point upwards into the baffle, possibly preventing the last bit of oil from draining. (my theory is that the little bit of oil that I'm still catching is due to this) See if you can use something to pry the hole a little outward after you punch it, so it has more of a downward funnel shape. (thanks to Curt (trackit) for the suggestion)

Alternatively, you could try drilling the holes, instead of punching. I didn't drill, because I was paranoid that some metal particles might not wash out and make their way into the engine. I think if you rinse the valve cover thoroughly, it won't be a problem. (dishwasher FTW!!)

One last thing: Jeff (Stratocaster) showed me an AP2 valve cover he had in his garage, and the baffle looked pretty much the same. Has anybody ever heard of AP2's having this problem? I always thought this was an AP1 only thing, but now I'm not so sure.

[Hondassport]

Did a little home work on the difference between the AP1 and AP2 valve cover:
on the AP1 the PCV enters the valve cover vertically(pointing twords the baffle) thus allowing it to suck off of the baffle easily.
on the AP2 they rotated the PCV 90°(points twords pass. fender) thus reducing it's ability to suck off the baffle.

[Hondassport]

Jesuis,here is a thought , why don't you borrow that AP2 valve cover from Jeff and mount it on your AP1 and see if that stops the oil loss, you will need a AP2 PCV also....Pete

[Jesuis]

I knew about the different pcv valve angle. I didn't give it a second thought, but maybe it does reduce the oil-sucking a bit.

Jesuis,here is a thought , why don't you borrow that AP2 valve cover from Jeff and mount it on your AP1 and see if that stops the oil loss, you will need a AP2 PCV also....Pete

Very good idea, but I can't. I'm moving to the Netherlands (back home) in a few weeks, and last weekend was probably my last track event for a long time.
Bummer, but at least in Europe I will be able to check out the Autobahn, Nurburgring and Spa-Francorchamps once in a while :D
I'll be sure to report any oil-burning on the Ring back to this board ;)

[Hondassport]

I did this mod and my car stopped consuming oil,none in the last 2500 miles. Before the mod it would use 1/2-3/4QT in 2500 miles...Pete

[Coop]

Update

Well, I pulled the valve cover this morning, and I think I found (and solved) the cause of the infamous oil bruning problem.

Here is the underside of the valve cover:
http://forums.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/medium/P1011401_edit.jpg

I labeled the front, left and right side of the cover, as well as the location of the PCV valve and vent "intake". There is a baffle plate all along the top of the valve cover. It is sealed with a gasket-like material almost all along its perimeter (red line). The only place it is open to the camshaft area is along the right side (low side), so any oi caught up there drains out. There is an enclosed "pocket" at the front of the baffle where oil cannot drain to the right side (purple area). Normally, this probably won't matter, but under hard braking oil will pool up in this pocket. If you keep on going straight after the braking, the pooled up oil will just drain out on the right side. However, if the hard braking is immediately followed by a hard right turn, the pool of oil will swing from the front to the left (high) side, where, because of high vacuum, it will get sucked straight up the PCV valve.
I think the reason why the problem was so extreme in my case was because of my driving style. I brake very hard, and turn in hard immediately after. (tstiles and servicemangler will confirm this ;) ) I know I should probably be smoother, but throwing the car around through the corners is just way too much fun :)

Solution: punch some drain holes in he "oil collecting pocket":
http://forums.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/medium/P1011422.JPG
Hopefully, pooled up oil will drain out of the pocket while braking, and will no longer slosh to the pcv valve on a subsequent right-hander.
.

PS: I did the "suck and blow" test on all lines and valves, they were all fine.

Did this tonight to my valve cover and also cleaned out the VTEC screen. Very, very little in the screen.

[phm14]

Nice writeup:) It'd be nice to see the pics, though:confused:

[danvuquoc]

Sorry to bring this up from the grave everyone, but I wanted to do this modification this weekend and instead found an interesting bit of information. Below is a picture of the AP1 valve cover with the baffling plate removed. The seal actually goes beyond just the perimeter of top, bottom, and right side of the valve cover, it actually has a sectioned off area just for the PCV.

Here's my analysis of the baffling:
- The PCV baffle area is isolated from the rest of the baffling and the breather area.
- Putting holes in the front of the valve cover shouldn't really do anything at all -- on a stock S2000 with no other catch-can/breather setups. Uncertain on how a catch can in one of its many configurations would affect things.
- The entrance and bends/walls for oil to go up the PCV baffle area is designed to have lots of obstacles.
- The nature of these designed obstacles is likely to reduce the amount of oil that gets to the PCV, while still letting crank ventilation through the PCV, and to collect oil mist as it moves towards the vacuum caused by the PCV area.
- On the flip side of things, oil that DOES make it through also has a harder time ESCAPING from the PCV baffled area.

Image of baffle removed:
http://uploads.vuquoc.com/data/valve-cover-baffel-removed.jpg

Here is an image of what is generally accepted as to what happens when that big cloud of smoke comes out during track days :)
http://uploads.vuquoc.com/data/valve-cover-generally-accepted.jpg

However if you take into consideration the sealed off PCV section, it's more likely that this is how the actual problematic flow of oil occurs.
http://uploads.vuquoc.com/data/valve-cover-likely.jpg

This is of course a problem, because it limits your available solutions for the issue. I believe that putting a hole next to or right under the PCV hole to evacuate oil under hard braking is likely to make the situation worse because of the increased amount of oil splash and mist during even normal driving. So this is what I'm proposing:

Get in a step ahead of the oil:
- In most situations, in order to generate g-forces braking, you first need to accelerate.
- Drill holes at the opposite side of the baffle, so that when you accelerate, any oil in that is trapped in that area gets dumped.
- When you do get around to braking there is very little to no oil in the baffle to slosh forward.
- The distance for oil splashing or misting to travel to the PCV is still substantial.
http://uploads.vuquoc.com/data/valve-cover-suggested-holes.jpg


Let me know what you think!

[Coop]

it makes sense to me. In my AP1, I drilled some holes as in this post http://forums.s2kca.com/showpost.php?p=314026&postcount=60 and it seemed to take care of the problem, Now if you look, the holes are in the area of your last picture.

Now my next problem, is why is this happening to my 08 CR, if Honda fixed this on AP2's.

[danvuquoc]

it makes sense to me. In my AP1, I drilled some holes as in this post http://forums.s2kca.com/showpost.php?p=314026&postcount=60 and it seemed to take care of the problem, Now if you look, the holes are in the area of your last picture.

Now my next problem, is why is this happening to my 08 CR, if Honda fixed this on AP2's.

Well, I've seen that thread before actually, it's what got my curiosity going on the topic. If you drilled the holes just like Jesuis did -- then you've drilled holes in an area that is closed off from the actual PCV section -- I'm not sure how that would have fixed the problem

As for the CR valve cover, it's the same as the AP2 valve cover, I don't think the baffling is different on the AP2 valve cover, it's just that they repositioned the PCV hole at a different location/angle that makes it harder to suck up oil. While it's harder to suck up oil, it still does and I've seen AP2s with plenty of blowby on certain tracks -- just not as badly as the AP1.

[danvuquoc]

BTW, credit goes to Macr88 for the idea :)

[tr8al]

We went out for our drive this past weekend. WhiteMike was behind me and said that I was burning oil on hard acceleration and high revs. Car has 95k. I've tracked the car 6 times since I bought it and didn't use a drop. Changed the oil 3 time with oem filters from 87k-95k. Always clean, first owner did every 3k.
To be honest the oil is so clean its hard to see on the stick. When I got back I checked it and it was 1 qt low. Maybe I didn't fill. Using 10-30 Shell dino.I going to top off and recheck after some miles. I'm doing plugs soon, normally I do on a cold engine but I want to do comp ck, better on warm not hot engine. Any problem pulling plugs if its warm? What is a good psi on this engine? Any other thoughts? Runs great,30mpg. I had heard about the Catch can deal for the track and was surprised that it didn't burn at the track.

Thanks.

Might not be a bad idea to take a look under the valve cover just to be sure. I can't imagine that you would have poor oil return unless you've been somewhat remiss in your oil and filter change regimen (sludge).
You might also consider installing Kranvents on both lines.

[repiv]

I'm doing plugs soon, normally I do on a cold engine but I want to do comp ck, better on warm not hot engine. Any problem pulling plugs if its warm? What is a good psi on this engine? Any other thoughts? Runs great,30mpg. I had heard about the Catch can deal for the track and was surprised that it didn't burn at the track..
I've done plugs when engine is cold, warm and hot. It doesn't seem to matter so long as you use anti-seize when installing them. It might be my imagination, but I feel they unscrew a bit easier when warm.
So, did you install Krank-vents? Or a new stock PCV valve? A catch can will prevent most of the oil from getting into the intake, then being burned in the engine. But you'll still see the oil level go down as it ends up in the can. The engine should burn cleaner without all that oil getting taken into the intake.
Nominal compression is 228 psi.

[tr8al]

Engine bone stock, K&N air filter...probably original PCV valve. are 2 catch cans needed? I see them on Ebay for about $10...are these ok ? Is the a picture of layout? Whats a Krank-vent? Is a heavier oil needed?

Thanks

I've done plugs when engine is cold, warm and hot. It doesn't seem to matter so long as you use anti-seize when installing them. It might be my imagination, but I feel they unscrew a bit easier when warm.
So, did you install Krank-vents? Or a new stock PCV valve? A catch can will prevent most of the oil from getting into the intake, then being burned in the engine. But you'll still see the oil level go down as it ends up in the can. The engine should burn cleaner without all that oil getting taken into the intake.
Nominal compression is 228 psi.

[repiv]

Engine bone stock, K&N air filter...probably original PCV valve. are 2 catch cans needed? I see them on Ebay for about $10...are these ok ? Is the a picture of layout? Whats a Krank-vent? Is a heavier oil needed?

Thanks
If you are running the original PCV, you may be in dire need of a new one. They aren't expensive. However, if you've got an oil burning problem a Krantvent is a heavy duty PCV valve that has proven to do wonders for our cars.
No, you don't need 2 catch cans. You can install a small filter on the front breather. As for the PCV line, you need to decide if you want an open system or a closed system (which uses manifold vacuum to draw oil vapours through the PCV). I don't think the 10 buck ebay catch cans are very effective at converting the oil vapours back to liquid oil. Their internal baffling is not very sophisticated.
No, you don't need a heavier oil unless your compression is shot, then a heavier oil is a temporary remedy.
Search the forum for "catch can". You might find a picture of some layouts.

[tr8al]

Greatly appreciate your time and incite...I'll do some checking.

Thanks:thumbup:

If you are running the original PCV, you may be in dire need of a new one. They aren't expensive. However, if you've got an oil burning problem a Krantvent is a heavy duty PCV valve that has proven to do wonders for our cars.
No, you don't need 2 catch cans. You can install a small filter on the front breather. As for the PCV line, you need to decide if you want an open system or a closed system (which uses manifold vacuum to draw oil vapours through the PCV). I don't think the 10 buck ebay catch cans are very effective at converting the oil vapours back to liquid oil. Their internal baffling is not very sophisticated.
No, you don't need a heavier oil unless your compression is shot, then a heavier oil is a temporary remedy.
Search the forum for "catch can". You might find a picture of some layouts.

[repiv]

Greatly appreciate your time and incite...I'll do some checking.

Thanks:thumbup:
Take a look at the picture posted on page 3 of this thread. You would place the Krankvent on the back PCV line with flow going into the intake manifold. The front line can be plugged at the intake pipe and a small filter placed on the valve cover.
If you choose to go with a catch can, you would splice it in just after the PCV valve (and Krankvent if you are putting one in) and before the intake manifold in that picture. This would be a "closed" system.

If you want to do an "open" catch can system, you can use a "Y" to take both the PCV line and front breather line to the can. Click on the small picture below and it will take you to my photo album where I've got a bunch of pictures of my open catch can. Without a proper "How To", the pictures may be confusing but it may give you some ideas on what to look for.
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/562873851nUgaCQ?vhost=good-times

Basically, both lines run into the catch can, which is filtered and open to the atmosphere. The PCV hose at the intake manifold is plugged and so is the hole at the intake pipe. In this system, no oil vapour will enter the engine through the intake. It collects in the can, which you should empty a couple times a year.

[tr8al]

Since the last post I've looked at a lot of CC info. It seems that the key to its performance,and price diff, is the internal bafflement's ability to condense the oil out of the vapor. I have a lot of pneumatic fittings an such.and I think that I could make a high performance CC out of PVC pipe,the white or black stuff, if I knew how the baffles were made in the good ones. I have some ideas of what would work but I don't believe in reinventing the wheel if I don't have to. I thought a maze pattern like in a muffler might work. Do you have any suggestions or have you seen the internals of the good VS bad ones? I haven't been able to find these details. Is a Krank-Vent just a stronger check valve to keep less blow-by from going into the intake?

Thanks


Take a look at the picture posted on page 3 of this thread. You would place the Krankvent on the back PCV line with flow going into the intake manifold. The front line can be plugged at the intake pipe and a small filter placed on the valve cover.
If you choose to go with a catch can, you would splice it in just after the PCV valve (and Krankvent if you are putting one in) and before the intake manifold in that picture. This would be a "closed" system.

If you want to do an "open" catch can system, you can use a "Y" to take both the PCV line and front breather line to the can. Click on the small picture below and it will take you to my photo album where I've got a bunch of pictures of my open catch can. Without a proper "How To", the pictures may be confusing but it may give you some ideas on what to look for.
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/562873851nUgaCQ?vhost=good-times

Basically, both lines run into the catch can, which is filtered and open to the atmosphere. The PCV hose at the intake manifold is plugged and so is the hole at the intake pipe. In this system, no oil vapour will enter the engine through the intake. It collects in the can, which you should empty a couple times a year.

[repiv]

Since the last post I've looked at a lot of CC info. It seems that the key to its performance,and price diff, is the internal bafflement's ability to condense the oil out of the vapor. I have a lot of pneumatic fittings an such.and I think that I could make a high performance CC out of PVC pipe,the white or black stuff, if I knew how the baffles were made in the good ones. I have some ideas of what would work but I don't believe in reinventing the wheel if I don't have to. I thought a maze pattern like in a muffler might work. Do you have any suggestions or have you seen the internals of the good VS bad ones? I haven't been able to find these details. Is a Krank-Vent just a stronger check valve to keep less blow-by from going into the intake?

Thanks
I can't help you with the baffling inside a CC. A Krantvent is just a much stronger one way valve. If you use an open CC and plug the intake side of the PCV line, you don't need a KV. The stock one will do.

[tr8al]

Put new plugs and PCV valve in today. Was fast b4, much faster now. Has more low rpm grunt an a meaner snarl at 8K too. Did comp readings about 2 hrs after up to operating temp so the readings I'm sure would be higher if the engine was hotter. I like to take a 1st stroke and a total reading.the service manual says new 228ps, acceptable 228 to 135 a variance of 29 psi is ok.
The engine has 95K, 195 psi total all,held pressure no leak down,115 1st comp stroke. I put oil in 1 cylinder just to check valves, came up to 225. It seams normal to me. extra sealing +the oil volume for the extra psi. Will run for a week or so and watch the oil level.
I noted that a lot of blow-by at the PVC grommet at idle,less at high rpm, and did not smell like exhaust, it smelled fresh? Also If I run an open CC won't this blow-by find its way into the car?
Also isn't part of the PVC function to clean the inside by sucking out the gases? from these readings would 10-40 be better for the track?

Thanks again

I can't help you with the baffling inside a CC. A Krantvent is just a much stronger one way valve. If you use an open CC and plug the intake side of the PCV line, you don't need a KV. The stock one will do.

[repiv]

The PCV system is an emission control system. If by getting into the car on an open CC, you mean it'll get vented to atmosphere, then yes, it'll get vented into the engine bay. The CC should liquefy most of the oil vapour and what comes out the filter should be a light oil mist.
The PCV system doesn't clean anything. It's there to relieve crankcase pressure. That pressure contains oil vapour. The intake manifold vacuum aids in delivering those vapours into the combustion chamber so it can be burned. If you have a lot of oil vapour, this accelerates plug fouling and contaminates the air/fuel mix, reducing the output of the engine. Eliminating all oil vapour from entering the combustion process should give you a cleaner and stronger engine. However, if you have an environmental conscience, this would work against it. You can't have both.
10W40 won't hurt anything for track duty, but I doubt you will feel any significant benefit.

[tr8al]

Problem solved:). Since I found that my S was using oil I had done much research, new PCV valve, designed a catch can with internal baffles, and lost some sleep. I was using Shell 10-30 didn't use a drop even at the track with lots of VTEC. I always used good oil and Quaker State was a good buy. I put it in the S and my Volvo turbo, didn't think much of it. It didn't click at first but both cars started using oil. Long story short changed QS oil with 1K miles on it to Castrol,
has not used a drop in 400 miles with much VTEC!! Also found on the net that QS has a reputation for being consumed. Power has also increased dramatically. Some blow-by at PVC port(b4 valve) at idle, vertually none when engine is raced. I'm sure that the compression has increased. I will be trying my CC, open and closed. I thank repiv his help on this issue and:overhere: don't use QUAKER STATE OIL IN YOUR S.

The PCV system is an emission control system. If by getting into the car on an open CC, you mean it'll get vented to atmosphere, then yes, it'll get vented into the engine bay. The CC should liquefy most of the oil vapour and what comes out the filter should be a light oil mist.
The PCV system doesn't clean anything. It's there to relieve crankcase pressure. That pressure contains oil vapour. The intake manifold vacuum aids in delivering those vapours into the combustion chamber so it can be burned. If you have a lot of oil vapour, this accelerates plug fouling and contaminates the air/fuel mix, reducing the output of the engine. Eliminating all oil vapour from entering the combustion process should give you a cleaner and stronger engine. However, if you have an environmental conscience, this would work against it. You can't have both.
10W40 won't hurt anything for track duty, but I doubt you will feel any significant benefit.

[repiv]

don't use QUAKER STATE OIL IN YOUR S.
I've never been a fan of Quaker State oil since the old days when our turbo van developed really bad sludge buildup under the valve cover. I had hoped that over the past few decades, QS would have been a more improved product. I guess they still have some work to do.
It would seem that Quaker State, Shell and Slick 50 are all the same company now. And we all know about the class action law from a couple of decades ago against Shell and Slick 50, right? They lost.