LE-607 and Temperature

[trapper]

Lubrication Engineers “Almasol Vari-Purpose Gear Lubricant 607” [LE-607] has been recommended many times as a lubricant for the S2000 differential. Its MSDS sheet indicates that it exceeds GL-5 specs so that is not an issue [To me anyways…. Some say since it’s NOT stamped on the bottle I can’t be sure it meets GL-5 specs].

What is an issue is its pour point which is only –11 Degrees F as compared with Mobil’s Synthetic 75W-90 oil with a –51 Degree F pour point.

It has been repeatedly stated that because of this high pour point temperature LE-607 should NOT be used in cold climates. But how cold is too cold?.

I have been told by one source that the pour point plus 20 Degrees F is the cut-off point.

In that case LE-607 should not be used in temperatures below about +10 Degrees F while the Mobil 75W-90 could be used to –30 Degrees F.

Has anybody else heard of this “pour point plus 20 Degree” rule of thumb? Does it have any validity?

[trapper]

Well ..... after a week I decided I wasn't going to get any responses to my question from you guys so I emailed Lubrication Engineers asking them: ....below what temperature would they NOT recommend LE-607's use in our S2K differentials.

I received the following reply from them the next day. It's about what I expected it to be. It didn't really answer my question but their email represents their thoughts on the subject.

The other products they referred me to are not suitable for our use...... wrong viscosity.



*******************************************
Mr. XXXXXXXXXX,
Thanks for your interest in Lubrication Engineers.
First thing we do as a leading manufacture we always recommend what the manufacture recommends to use.
For your Honda S2000 you should have a manual that came with the auto and it will recommend the specification the fluid should meet for your auto, GL-5, or some thing else?
This is very important to you especially when there could be warranty issues.
If your S2000 calls for a GL-5 make sure there are no temperatures that go along with this requirement. If it says something like all temperatures then our fluid will meet the automobiles requirements.
The attached document for 607 will give you some technical information.
If you are still concerned about the cold I have attached two other products that we have available that also meet the GL-5 requirement one has a little lower pour point and the other quite lower.
I hope I have addressed your concerns and answered all your questions.
Please feel free to contact me if you deem necessary.

Danny Hoover
Lubrication Engineers, Inc.

[repiv]

Just got back from vacation. Otherwise, you know I would have replied at the time.
LE607 was first introduced to S2000 owners by a guy named "Road Rage" on the other forum. He is a tribologist (oil scientist). He looked at the ingredients and analysis of this product compared to those that Honda had to offer (SAE 90) and others and determined that the LE product was a very viable product for our use. However, due to LE's inherent thickness, even at "room temp", Road Rage did add the caveat that for those operating the car in extreme cold, another choice would be better. He never stated what he considered "extreme cold". I view this for my own use and arbitrarily decided to use consistent "freezing temps" as extreme cold. I have used Mobil 1 75W90 for the whole life of my 6 year old S2000 and the oil analysis I get would indicate that during hot weather running, it is more than adequate for the job. Being, a multigrade and one that I know will actually easily pour at room temps, gives me added peace of mind that when I operate the car in sub-zero temps, I'm covered.
I think it's important to note that LE607 is a very good option but it is not the "end all, be all" of rear diff fluids for our cars.

[trapper]

Hope you enjoyed your vacation and went someplace WARM. I spent a year in the mid 60’s in Morrisburg, Ontario as the Construction Supervisor building and helping startup of a chemical plant that made, believe it or not, the oil additive that makes multi-viscosity oils multi-viscosity. Used to get up in the morning during the winter and day after day it would be –10F. By 2 PM it would be +10F and then all downhill from there. It got as low as –35F a few times. Construction started in the late fall and we were pouring concrete and erecting structural steel most of the winter. But, I digress.

I’ve read all of “Road Rages” posts in the Oil Journals at the “Other Place” and have his write up in “The truth about 90w diff oil” he and others (including you I believe) contributed to downloaded on my computer. It’s his fault (and by default yours too :) ) that I’m asking my question because based on that thread I put LE-607 in my diff. this summer when it was due for a change.

Road Rage said: “ Most 90w's have a pour point well above 0degF - well, LE-607 is not like most 90w's. I took LE-607 down to 0degF (-17C) and it flowed well enough to satisfy me.”

A little later RS2000 said in summary: “I think the choice for low ambient temperature (<0C) is obvious - use 75W90, which is consistent with the Honda TSB, because the protection offered by a mono-vis oil will not likely be adequate.”

Much later it was SpitfireS who offered the “Pour point plus 20F” rule for a diff oil low temp cut-off point in response to the question when I posted it there. On that basis LE-607, with a published pour point of –11F should be OK down to about +10F.

I’d never heard of that “ pour point +20" rule of thumb before and was curious as to anyone over here had heard of it. Have you?

I knew I was living on the borderline of acceptable temperatures when I put the LE-607 in the diff. Maybe I’m picking at nits but that 22F degree difference between 32F and 10F is somewhat important to me. I live in Southern New Jersey and the mid-morning temperature during January and most of February is quite frequently in that +10F to +32F range. Since my “S” is a daily driver I would be much happier if I was more certain that I was OK down to +10F with the LE-607. As it is I leave it in the driveway unless it’s around +30F.

[repiv]

Nope, I've never heard of this "rule", either. I do know that Spitfire knows his stuff when it comes to oils. And as "rules" goes, this one is "of thumb" and as with all such rules, one must incorporate a bit of real world common sense, along with concrete knowledge. I've done some freezing experiments with pour characteristics of non-synthetics and know how they act in severe cold and using what owners have posted about how difficult it is to get LE to pour out of the bottle when doing fluid changes, re-affirms to me that it will most likely pour very sluggishly when cold. This is enough for me to avoid it for my type of climate.
I also have no doubt in my mind that if I were to use it, that common sense would tell me to not tax its lubricating ability until sufficient time was given to allow it to warm up just a little bit. In the same token, I'm not willing to drive like a granny for an inordinate amount of time to make that happen on a daily basis and I'm almost convinced that not everyone who does use it in cold climates are going to do it, either. A multigrade synthetic represents a far more versatile diff fluid for such people, myself included.

Oh, and yes, I went someplace warm, thanks. I went to Hawaii, where I had a chance to have a meet with the fine local S2000 owners there. They certainly have to have one of the most ideal S2000 driving climate there can be. How ironic that the last thing I did before I headed off to the airport and the first thing I did when coming home from the airport was the same -- shovelling deep snow off my sidewalks.

[raymo19]

That sounds like a very enjoyable vacation indeed. I bet the homecoming was a bit tough.

I thought I'd throw in another alternative for S2000 fluids - not to start a controversy but to relate my experience of late.

I'm currently using Schaeffer's Supreme 7000 10W30 synthetic motor oil and have been so impressed with the product I agreed to try this oil in my tranny after being assured by their rep they would stand behind it. What sold me is this formulation has friction modifiers (molybdenum and Penetro) similar to the GM product.

I've had it in the tranny since October and until last week with a defective aftermarket clutch. The shifts (once I could get the tranny in gear) were smoother than with any fluid I've used. Now with the clutch straightened out it's smoother than I can ever remember. I'm anxious now to see how long it lasts and how it looks when I replace it.

Back on topic I've also switched over to the 80W-90 Schaeffer's gear lube. I haven't had it the car long enough to say for sure but the whine from the 4.57R rear gears seems quieter. Of couse, this could just be a result of new fluid. I was using the Mobil 1 75W-90.

Disclaimer - This post should in no way be construed as a recommendation. I have no affiliation of any kind with Schaeffer Oil but I did spend some time learning about the company and its products and have so far been very impressed.

[fltsfshr]

Raymo

You're using 10w30 synthetic motor oil in your tranny? I went over to mtl-p. Very slippery stuff. I'm coming up on a change in a couple thousand miles. I have noticed that since I put it in, my tranny shifts much more smoothly.
I've been happy with the feel of it. We're also using it in the race civic.

I live where it's warm and have been using le 607 in the this diff since we did the 457 install. Previously I used Mobil1. I've had no problem but then it doesn't snow here. I haven't tried the new honda fluid.

Hows the fi on the car working out?

fltsfshr

[Abe Froman]

How ironic that the last thing I did before I headed off to the airport and the first thing I did when coming home from the airport was the same -- shovelling deep snow off my sidewalks.

Looks like someone needs a Honda snowblower :thumbsup:


It's been below zero here and yesterday @ 3degrees above I drove the car to work which has LE607 in the diff.

My only complaint were the Bridgestones took a mile or two "to come back in";otherwise no issues

[raymo19]

Raymo

You're using 10w30 synthetic motor oil in your tranny? I went over to mtl-p. Very slippery stuff. I'm coming up on a change in a couple thousand miles. I have noticed that since I put it in, my tranny shifts much more smoothly.
I've been happy with the feel of it. We're also using it in the race civic.

I live where it's warm and have been using le 607 in the this diff since we did the 457 install. Previously I used Mobil1. I've had no problem but then it doesn't snow here. I haven't tried the new honda fluid.

Hows the fi on the car working out?

fltsfshr

Yes, the same oil that's in the engine. I was very skeptical at first as you'd imagine but after I saw the demonstration and talked with the rep for a while I agreed to try it.

Yeah I know it's pretty warm in Naples. It's about 32 degrees here but no snow. We may see another wintry mix episode on Monday. Damn groundhog!

As far as the SC, what's not to like? I'm going to get it tuned again by another tuner a buddy of mine turned me on to to see if we can lean it out a bit and stabilize the AFRs. The car's running fine but I think after getting folk's input here we can get it better.

[trapper]

Looks like someone needs a Honda snowblower

http://www.s2kca.com/photopost/data/15153/2223SnowRemoval.gif

[repiv]

Looks like someone needs a Honda snowblower :thumbsup:
Coincidentally, I have one. ;) In fact, I've just replaced some parts on it from being worn out. Unfortunately, I have sidewalks on the inside of my yard that the blower can't fit and I have staircases and a deck that must be done by hand. I also have a Honda lawn mower. :D Just like the S2000, those things are as reliable and rock solid as a Hawaiian sunset.

[repiv]

http://www.s2kca.com/photopost/data/15153/2223SnowRemoval.gif
This is the exact battle I have every winter with the street grader. I take the snow off and the grader throws it all back on. :banghead:

[trapper]

This is the exact battle I have every winter with the street grader. I take the snow off and the grader throws it all back on. :banghead:

I know the feeling...they hide just around a corner out of sight, engine running, just waiting for you to finish shoveling...and then....zzzooooommmm...

It's a game they play ..... I throw snowballs at them.

[trapper]

It's been below zero here and yesterday @ 3degrees above I drove the car to work which has LE607 in the diff....

Abe .... what state do you live in? How many WINTERS have you driven with the LE607 in the diff.?

[Abe Froman]

Ohio.....three winters but this has been the coldest since the S2000 was in the garage

[desmo4]

I ran Redline 10w30 in the engine and transmission for over 30k miles until the dealer replaced my cylinder head at 38k miles. At that time they changed it back to Honda fluid. I have never had any transmission issues. Presently I 85k on the car.

Jonathan

[trapper]

Ohio.....three winters but this has been the coldest since the S2000 was in the garage

You're lucky to be able to garage the car. How cold does your garage get? Below freezing?

My garage, which is unforunately too full of junk [like snow blowers] to put the "S" in, is unheated. But it is part of the main house structure and never gets below 40F now matter how cold it is outside.

Even though your outside temp is real low, your garage may considerably higher than that. Therefore your LE607 diff. oil may be already in the "safe" range before you start driving.

Since my S is always outside when I start driving in the morning the diff. oil is whatever the outside temp is.

I guess what I'm getting at is: Do you ever begin driving you car when the diff. oil temp starts out below freezing?

[Abe Froman]

I guess what I'm getting at is: Do you ever begin driving you car when the diff. oil temp starts out below freezing?


All the time, like this morning it was 19F

2 minute warm up in the garage and moderate speeds for the first mile or two

[trapper]

I recently got some new info from SpitfireS over at S2ki regarding the low-end temperature use of gear oils.

Below are two links that indicate that gear oils can be safely used down to: Pour Point + 9 degrees F.

The pour point of LE607 and LE1605 is -11 deg F. Based on that they should be good for use down to about 0 Deg F. [-11+9 =~0 ]

"Viscosity of Gear Oils" paragraph in:

http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=gear_oils


First Paragraph in:

http://www.engineersedge.com/gears/g...cteristics.htm

[emg88]

Paul I posted this a while ago. If you really concerned about cold weather, use a multi weight Diff Oil. And it has a GL-5 rating! Amsoil Severe Gear 75W-110

Posted about 4 months ago by me:
I like the 75-110 so much, I will try it in the colder weather. Here is what I based this on. I had the 75-90 in the car at 82 degs. I took an infrared temp reading before and after a specific drive. Changed the diff fluid to the 75-110. I took the before temp. The diff temp was higher to start since the housing was warm from the drive. I did the same drive, took the temp reading, Air temp was now 83. The diff temp was 17 degs lower after the same drive! Less heat = less friction=
The 75-110 should provide the same cold weather properties as the 75-90 so why change?

Could I be more scientific? Yes. Do I need to? I don't think so. I did everything I could to generate more heat in the diff. Accelerate hard, hard turns on the gas and tried to duplicate the drives as much as possible. I think I did that as well as you could on the street.

[trapper]

.......If you really concerned about cold weather......

Ed....... Not really concerned [anymore]. I started this thread and just thought I'd update it with the new info I'd gotten.

People keep saying: "don't use this or that diff fluid when it's COLD." That don't mean a whole helleva lot if, like me, you were brought up in New England and have lived and worked on outdoor construction projects during winters in Buffalo NY and Canada. In our South New Jersey area people think it's cold when it gets to 40F [You should see the strange looks we get driving top-down in 40ish degree weather]. To me that isn't bathing suit weather but it sure isn't COLD either.

Anyway, the answer to the low end "Cold" cut off point for gear oils appears to be: Pour point + 9 degF.

Since it rarely gets below 0F anyplace I currently drive during the winter, I intend to keep using LE607 or LE1605. Besides, I've still got one unopened bottle of LE607 left and for what it cost I'm not about to throw it away if it can be used safely.

[repiv]

I recently got some new info from SpitfireS over at S2ki regarding the low-end temperature use of gear oils.

Below are two links that indicate that gear oils can be safely used down to: Pour Point + 9 degrees F.

The pour point of LE607 and LE1605 is -11 deg F. Based on that they should be good for use down to about 0 Deg F. [-11+9 =~0 ]

"Viscosity of Gear Oils" paragraph in:

http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=gear_oils


First Paragraph in:

http://www.engineersedge.com/gears/g...cteristics.htm
I was thinking that I might try the new replacement LE, but this won't work for me. My operating conditions can get down to near -40 at least once each winter. I'll stick to a multigrade synthetic.