Engine with no oil -

[mdfairbanks]

Hi there,
This is my first post - I'm hoping that those of you with more "car experience" may be able to help me. I had my oil changed at my Honda dealer on Saturday - the tech neglected to tighten the drain plug causing all the oil to blow out on my way to work yesterday, and the engine to seize up. The service department is taking responsibility for this, but they are intent on just replacing parts bit by bit as they feel necessary. I was wondering if any of you have any suggestion - my feeling is that I need an entirely new engine. I don't feel comfortable that just replacing some of the parts will get the engine back to original condition (it's a 2002 - I've had it for 1.5 yrs and 35,000 miles, all maintenance performed regularly). Am I being naive in expecting a new engine?
Thanks in advance for any help or comments...
M.

[Greg Stevens]

M., welcome to the club and the forum...! Your membership package went out yesterday...

As to your engine, do you know if they mean they are going to, for example, look at each piston and so forth for damage and then replace it on a piece by piece basis? To me, that would be wholly unacceptable. I wouldn't take anything less than a short block, which means new engine block, pistons, rings, crankshaft...basically everything below the cylinder head. The parts that caused the engine to seize are all part of the 'bottom end', so it's possible that the cylinder head ans cams etc are OK, but even still, as I said, at the minimum, I would expect and -demand- a new short block...but an entire replacement wouldn't be out of the question.

It appalls me that you would have take any of their compromises after something like this. I know dealers don't want to spend money in this fashion, but in cases of outright idiocy such as this, they must and you shouldn't be expected to bend to their penny-pinching ways. They screwed up and need to be held to account without any compromise on your part.

Since the engine seized, it's likely that the cylinder walls are scored, so you can count on a block being replaced. It's also likely that that the rings are shot and possibly causing damage to the pistons. It's also likely that the main bearings are shot, possibly damaging the crankshaft and connecting rods. It's not possible to know without seeing the engine and the damage can manifest in a variety of ways...but the bottom line is that you should demand at least an entirely new short block, but an entire engine replacement would be best. You just don't know what kind of damage was caused to the valvetrain's bearings and other bits by not having oil in them.

How maddening...!

So I would push to have the whole engine replaced...if they give you any crap, I would contact the District Service Manager in your area and tell them your situation.

Keep us posted...and I hope your next post has happier news!

[monkeymaker]

Well, stuff like this is really dicey when dealing with dealerships. I'm sorry for your misfortune. IMO it may be a bit much to expect them to replace parts that were not damaged as a result of their error. If they replace everything that shows signs of the wear that results from oil starvation then your engine should run good as new once it's good and broken in again.

That said, if I were in your shoes, having been put through a great inconvenience and alot of unneccessary worry, I'd probably angle for some additional compensation like a year of free regular maintenence and if they don't cooperate I'd likely let them know that I'd be telling everyone I know about their incompetence. But I'm a pretty vindictive guy when I get screwed, so take it for what it's worth. ;) I wish you the best of luck though, and please keep us posted as to how it goes.

BTW~ welcome to S2KCA. I hope to see more of your posts over here. We have a different kind of crowd in this club, and a different approach to things (we're non-profit); maybe you'll like it better. :)

[WestSideBilly]

I would expect nothing less than a new short block. If you engine was without oil and seized, then virtually everything in the short block will be damaged. The block, crank, and pistons will all be severely scored. It may not be visual - it may require a microscope to see the full extent - but it's there. Everything else inside the block is spinning or moving, and requires oil to maintain a layer of protection. The parts of an engine simply aren't designed for direct contact. A part-by-part replacement based on the semi-trained eye of a mechanic would not leave me very confident.

If they won't give you a new short block (at the least) - demand an additional 3/36,000 warranty on the entire engine (or, if you feel like pushing it, the entire car).

[desmo4]

My advice would be to call Honda in Torrence CA, the head quarters and slam the dealer. Force them to get you a brand new engine.

Jonathan

[zippy]

I think that I would insist on a short block. If you seized it you could have tremendous heat stresses and wear on all components in the bottom.

My .02

[Rowland]

Originally posted by zippy
I think that I would insist on a short block. If you seized it you could have tremendous heat stresses and wear on all components in the bottom.

My .02
I agree with zippy you should not agree to anything less. If they have certainly owned up to the mistake there is nothing less then a full replacement of the short block to insure that the engine is fixed. You should request a garuantee of all work above and beyond the standard warranty.

[fastoldman]

I work at a Dealership and I honestly think you are within your rights to request a new short block.They made a gross error, and it is part of doing business. Unfortunate on both your parts ,but they need to do what is right , and if they don't take care of it quickly, there are subtle means to use to get their attention.Best of luck and I would talk to the owner.

[mdfairbanks]

Hi everyone - thanks for all the great input!
Just an update:
My dealership was not at all receptive to the idea of replacing the short block entirely. As it turns out, the service manager lied to me when he said the tore down the entire motor and found that only the bearings and rods needed replacement. Apparently, he just decided to replace those parts and crossed his finger that that would be a solution. Of course, the engine was still knocking like crazy when they fired it up. Only THEN did they tear down the engine. The cylinders are VERY obviously scored (my husband went down there with a videocamera and it's obvious even to a non-technician). The headers are supposedly fine (but how can you ever really know?). The manager has a machinist coming in today to see if he can hone the cylinders to workable shape. So, I have three potential possibilities:
1) They discover they can't hone the cylinders and end up replacing the short block.
2) They refuse to replace the short block, and I demand that they bore out the cylinders, sleeve them and put in some bigger pistons (I planned on doing some mods in the future).
3) Tell them their work is unacceptable, demand they give me market value for it and go buy a new car elsewhere (of course another S2000 ;)).
Any suggestions?
By the way - I called American Honda, and because my dealership is an "independently owned franchisee", Honda supposedly can't do anything. I'm kind of surprised they wouldn't want to protect the Honda brand and reputation, particularly because our cars are the "flagship" of the line...
Thanks for your help, everyone!
M.

[Rowland]

M,
I would say the dealership really has no choice here, though I am sure that others may vary in opinion some. It is your way or the highway, the dealership caused the damage and then you catch them BSing you. I personally would want a new short block and would insist that they replace any part that you 'feel' is in need of replacement.

Before they go any further you may want to have an independent party review the engine and give an opinion, this will weigh in greatly. Make sure you tell the dealer what you have decided so that they know 1) he will be coming to look at the car. 2) you mean business, if you choose that route.

I have the central BBB office address in Washington DC that deals with auto complaints throughout the US and will PM that to you when I get home just in case you need it. I really do not buy Honda's position that they cannot do anything, there are rules to franchise ownerships and standards to be maintained. If that statement were true then there would be a hell of a lot of unhappy 'Honda' customers running around.

Keep us posted. Good luck.

[WestSideBilly]

Demand a new shortblock. There is no alternative. Honing the piston walls will destroy the nikasil liner, and there aren't bigger pistons available for this motor. There's really not even room for bigger pistons. This dealer is inept, incompetent, and apparently downright stupid. Actually, option #3 is looking pretty good, though I'd hate to have someone else end up with your car with the half-assed repair work done to it.

If they won't give you a new shortblock (or FMV for the whole car), call the tow company and flatbed it to a different dealer that doesn't have their heads shoved up their asses, and send the bill to the first dealer - including the flatbed fee.

And a call to the BBB wouldn't be a bad idea, either...

[Greg Stevens]

Oh man...this isn't even my car and this INFURIATES me!

:devil: :flame: :guns: :flames: :thumbdn: :mad: :banghead:

I can't even believe that they are trying to pull this fast one. Rowland is being too kind. WSB has it about right. I would go after these clowns with guns blazing. In fact, these idiots should be put out of business!

The cylinder walls are already very thin and won't take a much, if at all, bigger piston. I don't know what, if any, aftermarket pistons are available...but even with all the incompetence flying around you, I wouldn't expect them to put anything besides OEM Honda parts in. So I don't think that is going to be an option for you.

The first option you mention shouldn't even be in your reality. In fact, at this point, I would demand a new LONG block. You have no idea, in the first place, what the oil starvation did to the valvetrain and secondly, what kind of things these morons did to it taking it all apart. Given what they are trying to do now, I would feel pretty confident they have screwed up something else by monkeying around with it. And don't count on them being able to put it all back together correctly...

I am shocked that you are being treated like this. Have you been in contact with the District Service Manager? I'm actually talking with someone at AHM today...I'll see if he has any ideas and let you know. I think the DSM's numbers are listed in the owner's manual. Give them a call and as others have said, a nice little chat with the BBB would be in order as well.

:(

Keep us posted...!

[desmo4]

I reiterate, Calll Honda Headquarters in Torrence CA the number is in your owners manual. Don't accept anything less than a new engine. The short block is not the only high stress area in an engine. The valve train is probably also damaged severly as well.

Jonathan

[Bieg]

Originally posted by desmo4
I reiterate, Calll Honda Headquarters in Torrence CA the number is in your owners manual. Don't accept anything less than a new engine. The short block is not the only high stress area in an engine. The valve train is probably also damaged severly as well.

Jonathan

I agree with this 100%.

I would not even want this dealer to perform the work considering they can't even tighten an oil drain bolt. :banghead:

[Rowland]

M,
Here is the info on the BBB, I decided that it would good info to share with everyone so I am posting it here in the thread.

Better Business Bureau, Inc.
BBB Auto Line
Ste 800
4200 Wilson Blvd.
Arlington, VA 22203

Telephone: 1-800-955-5100

You can open your claim over the phone. Once you do that the BBB will send you a claim packet, and call the parties involved and inform them of the claim being filed, fill out the forms and return the forms to BBB. (The claim should name the dealership and Honda if you ask me.) Once BBB receives the forms the parties must begin arbitration within 40 days.

If you do not have any luck with the District Manager let me know I have a couple other very useful numbers that will get someone's attention. ;)

[desmo4]

I hate to say it but at this point I would also call a lawyer because you are definitly dealing with crooks.

Jonathan

[mdfairbanks]

Hello again,
Well, I've finally got good news! It took a whole lot of crap, but I'm getting an entirely new engine. I'm not sure what finally pushed the dealership to this - could have been the calls to Honda, BBB, Owner, or my husband showing up at the shop with a video camera :D - but they'll be replacing the entire engine with a brand new one. Yay! I still plan on filing the complaint fully with the BBB, and I'm going to notify Honda of some of the other shady goings-on there too. I'll keep you all posted on how this all ends up, after I have my keys back in my hands - I am so tired of driving the loaner car, and can't wait to get back on the road (they gave me an Acura 3.2TL - which is probably a nice car to anyone BUT the owner of an S2000 haha!).

Even better news - I found a totally legitimate Honda dealer nearby and spoke to the General Manager. He just got in a 2003 silver/red, and has offered to try to work a deal for me "to make up for all the bullsh*t that other dealership put you through."

Thanks again to all of you for your help and support - I'm so glad I found this group!
M.
:hi:

[Rowland]

m,
Great news!!!:clap: It is a shame that the buthead put you through the crap they did. I think keeping a level head, being persistant, and knowing what you want were key points to getting things done. I would definately use the other dealer after you get your S back on the road.

Oh and one last thing - please do not forget us here at S2kca, comeback and visit often we are a mixed crowd of people who have one thing in common, the S2000. Hope to see you on the board again soon.

Cheers,:shifter:

[monkeymaker]

Congratulations on the resolution and thanx for sharing it with us! Best of luck to you. :)

[Greg Stevens]

Woohoo...congrats, M!

:thumbsup: :D